231. How to Negative Split Your Marathon

[00:00:00] You're listening to episode 231 of the Marathon Running Podcast. In this episode, we're going to learn about negative splitting your marathon.

[00:00:15] This is the Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from WE GOT THE RUNS. Join us in our running community for weekly content that is motivational, educational, and inspirational, and let the Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to the finish line and beyond.

[00:00:37] Hey runners and welcome to episode 231. My name is Letty and today I am hosting this podcast episode solo. Ryan is not available, but that's okay because this episode is literally jam-packed with information to help you guys figure out how to run these negative splits in marathons, which is absolutely hard to do and we're all aware of it.

[00:00:58] Before we hop into all of that, I have a few announcements to make. All of these are announcements about upcoming events that will be in attendance.

[00:01:06] Let's start with the New York City Marathon. The New York City Marathon takes place on November 3rd and obviously New York, the Marathon Running Podcast will be at the expo at a slot where we will interview runners and that's going to be on November 2nd.

[00:01:19] For timing and exact information in regards to that, please check our Instagram. We hope to see you there.

[00:01:26] Also, the Marathon Running Podcast has partnered up with the European Athletics Association and we will be in attendance at the European Running Business Conference, which takes place in Athens, Greece from November 8th through November 10th.

[00:01:41] It's an amazing conference for all people that work in the running industry and following that conference will be the Athens Marathon on Sunday, November 11th.

[00:01:50] So if you are planning on attending either the European Running Business Conference or the Athens Marathon, find us, let us know, contact us via Instagram. We would love to talk to you.

[00:02:01] I am so super excited to attend this conference as well as the marathon. I mean, it's the original marathon. I don't think it can get any better than that.

[00:02:09] And since we're announcing our partnerships, I'm also going to mention that we are going to be attending.

[00:02:16] So next up, the Marathon Running Podcast is super excited to announce our partnership with the Boston Run Show.

[00:02:22] The Boston Run Show is an annual event which will take place next on March 1st and March 2nd, 2025 at the BCEC in Seaport, Boston, which is an exhibition hall.

[00:02:33] There will be hundreds of brands and speakers. You'll even find Des Linden and Meb there.

[00:02:37] We'll be there as well, conducting interviews with the attendees.

[00:02:40] We're very excited and we have a code for you guys for free tickets, which is using MRP when you sign up at thebostonrunshow.com.

[00:02:50] Again, the code is MRP, which stands for Marathon Running Podcast.

[00:02:53] So mark your calendars and we hope to see you there.

[00:02:56] All right. So last but definitely not least, I wanted to announce that I've become an ambassador of the LA Marathon.

[00:03:03] If you guys are regular podcast listeners, you know how much I love the city of LA.

[00:03:08] LA is my favorite city in the world.

[00:03:10] And the LA Marathon was my first marathon that I ran when I first moved down there in 2009.

[00:03:16] And it was definitely not one that disappointed.

[00:03:20] It's a big race.

[00:03:21] I actually don't understand how it's not a major yet because it has all these components that you look for when you run a big city marathon.

[00:03:27] It was beautiful.

[00:03:29] The course is beautiful.

[00:03:30] The organizers are amazing.

[00:03:32] Everything about that race is just, I don't know.

[00:03:35] I don't know how you could not like that race.

[00:03:36] But anyway, if you guys are looking for a race, this race takes place on March 16th, 2025.

[00:03:43] And I have a discount code for you guys, which is 2025LETTI10.

[00:03:49] I will put that code down in the show notes as well as the link to LA Marathon.

[00:03:53] And that's it for all these announcements.

[00:03:55] Thanks for sticking with me.

[00:03:56] And let's move on to the substance of this podcast.

[00:03:59] Negative splitting a marathon is something that is difficult for anyone.

[00:04:02] If you think about it, it's something that's actually unnatural because you start an activity with a lot of energy.

[00:04:07] And as the day goes on, as the hours tick by, that energy goes away and things get harder and your body fatigues.

[00:04:15] So negative splitting a marathon takes a different approach.

[00:04:18] I've been chasing that approach for a really, really long time because there's a fine line between running a marathon too fast at the outset or running a marathon and then having too much energy left at the end, meaning that you could have done the whole thing faster.

[00:04:31] So for that reason, we talked to a run coach.

[00:04:35] And this run coach, by the way, is also an ambassador for the LA Marathon.

[00:04:39] And that's kind of how I know her.

[00:04:41] Her name is Nadia Ruiz.

[00:04:43] And she focuses a lot on teaching her athletes how to negative split and mental coaching as well, which is not something that we see very often.

[00:04:52] She also puts her mouth where the money is.

[00:04:54] She negative splits the marathons that she races and she does so very nicely, which is why I approached her in the first place.

[00:05:03] Anyway, she'll tell you the rest herself.

[00:05:05] Without any further ado, I'm now going to play my conversation with Nadia Ruiz.

[00:05:13] All right.

[00:05:14] So I'm on here with run coach Nadia Ruiz.

[00:05:16] Nadia, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:05:18] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:05:20] Yes, of course.

[00:05:21] And congratulations to you.

[00:05:23] You recently ran the Chicago Marathon.

[00:05:25] You did great.

[00:05:27] And most importantly, you finished the race with a smile and negative split, which is pretty much unachievable for most runners, which is why we're bringing you on here.

[00:05:37] But yeah, first, congratulations.

[00:05:40] Thank you.

[00:05:41] Thank you.

[00:05:42] It was a wonderful experience to come back to Chicago.

[00:05:44] It was my fourth Chicago finish, but it's been almost a decade since I was back there racing.

[00:05:51] So it was really nice to go back.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:53] And you kind of do that, right?

[00:05:54] Because you're also pacing your dad a lot.

[00:05:56] So you have a lot of races.

[00:05:58] You have a very balanced running life because you do some races fast and then other ones you just really do for the enjoyment of them.

[00:06:06] Definitely.

[00:06:06] Yes.

[00:06:07] That's kind of how I have maintained the longevity in the sport, but also how I've been able to do what I love and race often.

[00:06:13] So not all of them are all out.

[00:06:16] I have to be really, really calculated to see which ones I'm going to be going at 95%, 90%, 80%, 70%.

[00:06:24] Definitely.

[00:06:25] As I keep racing in each decade of my life, the amount of goal races I can target has decreased because of my running age.

[00:06:34] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:06:34] You've done a ton of marathons too.

[00:06:36] But let's hop into how you managed to get these negative splits.

[00:06:40] And you kind of mentioned earlier that you have four things that you're here too.

[00:06:44] One of them is pacing strategies.

[00:06:46] The other one is your fueling and hydration strategies.

[00:06:50] And then you remember all the things that you've done leading up to the race.

[00:06:53] And then another one, which is your reason why.

[00:06:57] I think the most interesting, not most important, but the hardest for us really is that pacing strategy.

[00:07:05] So maybe talk to us a little bit about that.

[00:07:08] Maybe just a general overview on how you decide which pace to go for and then how much slower you start running your race,

[00:07:18] knowing that in reality, you're going to speed up at the end.

[00:07:22] Yeah, so I actually shared that kind of as a prep for our conversation because I get that very often.

[00:07:28] The question is like, how do you negative split or how do you even split or how do you run the course, the course profile?

[00:07:32] And so those four tips that I shared, all of them are very important.

[00:07:37] Very, very equally important.

[00:07:38] It's really hard to rank them, which is.

[00:07:40] And so the number one was the pacing strategy, as you mentioned.

[00:07:44] Really, really honing in what pacing strategy you want to run for the race

[00:07:48] basically comes from analyzing your potential.

[00:07:52] And that comes from analyzing your training log.

[00:07:54] So you have to look at your marathon training block, whether it's three months long for a marathon focus,

[00:08:00] if it's six months long because you're just starting with your base training.

[00:08:04] You look at the key workouts.

[00:08:06] You look at the key consistency and how you're building that training program

[00:08:10] and see how your performance has changed over those five months.

[00:08:13] And you look at key kind of key races.

[00:08:15] If you have test race and you see what your potential is.

[00:08:19] And it does come with experience to be able to tweak that because.

[00:08:25] Literally, I will say it took me probably a minimum of 10 marathons of just failing of like,

[00:08:31] oh, I'm trying to overshoot.

[00:08:32] You overshoot and you positive split and you burn out.

[00:08:35] So it's like, why am I not hitting it if potentially I feel in my head and my body that I can do this?

[00:08:40] So it really comes down to like analyzing your training log and seeing your key performances in your training

[00:08:47] to really hone in on what race pace you should be targeting.

[00:08:52] And that takes trial and error.

[00:08:55] That takes experience.

[00:08:56] That takes a sharpened eye.

[00:08:59] And I would say any well-experienced coach should be able to do that for you if you have a coach

[00:09:05] and that they should be prescribing you a pacing strategy.

[00:09:08] Then the final touches, as I shared on that fourth tip, was really, really how you are mentally willing to endure that second half.

[00:09:17] Because no matter what pace you're going, that second half is going to be painful.

[00:09:20] It is going to be very uncomfortable.

[00:09:22] It is going to hurt.

[00:09:23] And so you have to be willing to accept that pain and burning sensation that you're feeling.

[00:09:31] Okay, so much packed into that.

[00:09:33] And I know we'll talk about that too.

[00:09:35] You kind of enjoy being in pain quite a bit more than probably others.

[00:09:41] Yes, I think as you become an athlete, you embrace it.

[00:09:44] You embrace that joy of that.

[00:09:46] It almost becomes a high, that level of digging into that pain cave.

[00:09:50] And we'll talk about how you dig into that.

[00:09:53] But let me go back to analyzing your training logs.

[00:09:57] So for those runners listening that are not coached, what are the key workouts that you're looking for?

[00:10:03] Are you looking for threshold runs and what pace you were able to run those for?

[00:10:09] What are some things that you look for when you come up with that strategy?

[00:10:13] And when you do have that strategy, when you know what average pace you will probably be able to run in the marathon,

[00:10:19] how do you know what pace you should start with?

[00:10:23] Because normally you start with a pace and I want to say 75% of us end up going slower towards the end and just hanging on for dear life.

[00:10:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:34] I see it very, very often.

[00:10:36] And again, on all levels.

[00:10:38] And so number one is you want to look at the last two months.

[00:10:44] The last two months of your marathon training clock are very, very key.

[00:10:47] And that comes from what are your marathon workouts?

[00:10:50] What does your pace look like there?

[00:10:52] Are you hitting your target pace?

[00:10:53] What does your heart rate look like?

[00:10:55] You also want to look at that threshold runs are very important.

[00:10:58] Those tempo efforts.

[00:10:59] What is your heart rate?

[00:11:01] Because everyone has like kind of their heart rate zones are pretty like.

[00:11:07] Pretty standard when you look that up, look them up on Google and look them up online.

[00:11:11] We as individuals will vary just slightly depending upon what's our max heart rate or what's our VO2 max.

[00:11:17] So just keep keeping in mind those those key long runs, workouts, the tempos, the thresholds.

[00:11:25] And then also we tend to look like neglect of looking at the easy runs.

[00:11:28] Like what does your heart rate look like on those easy runs?

[00:11:30] Are you very relaxed or are you not really running in those easy, easy paces?

[00:11:35] So I do that for myself and I do that for my athletes.

[00:11:38] I look at that to see what their potential physically is.

[00:11:42] And then I will discuss as trading strategy because then you have to get and go into the mind.

[00:11:47] Because you can have perfect pacing strategy on paper on by analyzing the numbers.

[00:11:52] But if the person's psychology isn't willing to commit and be calculated, that means controlled in the first half to stick to it and not overshoot.

[00:12:04] And then be then committed to enduring that second half.

[00:12:08] That will then help you either even split or negative split.

[00:12:13] So then it comes into play the person's mind.

[00:12:16] Like what is the psychology of the athlete?

[00:12:19] And I discuss that with my athletes.

[00:12:21] And so if the person is really like hungry and they're like an animal, like I'm ready.

[00:12:26] I am ready to really endure.

[00:12:28] Then I will be a little more aggressive with the pacing strategy.

[00:12:31] If let's say my athlete or myself, like I'm just not in the good headspace or something really going on, like whatever weight and stress that we have in life.

[00:12:39] Like then you have to be a little more passive.

[00:12:41] So this is where you play and fine tune the strategy.

[00:12:43] It can be you can start digging under.

[00:12:46] Let's just say like let me give you some round numbers.

[00:12:48] If the person's goal is to break four hours and their fitness is there, it shows that they can do a four break the four hour barrier.

[00:12:55] But if they have a lot going on or let's say it's going to be really hot or it's going to be really humid, then we start to pace the strategy.

[00:13:01] Like let's be a little more conservative and start you conservative at like a 403, 404.

[00:13:07] And then if I know you're hungry and you're going to work for it the second half, then you go after it.

[00:13:11] Because it I will I will say time and time again, there is no such thing as banking time.

[00:13:18] I mean, you you hear all the time is like, oh, let's go ahead and like put time in the bank, time in the bank, time in the bank.

[00:13:24] Like if you are going into your threshold or if you're going into your red, your redlining too soon in your marathon, that doesn't matter how much you're willing.

[00:13:32] And you could be the mind of a lion.

[00:13:35] If you're already dipping too much in your in the beginning, your body will shut down and it's just going to shut down on you.

[00:13:41] It's like then you become frustrated at that point.

[00:13:43] It's the second half.

[00:13:44] So it's really important to understand, like you want to stay very controlled in the first half and then be willing to endure the second half.

[00:13:52] Perfect. And you mentioned redlining a little bit.

[00:13:54] Maybe you can hop into that a tiny bit to explain to the listeners what that means and when it is that we start redlining.

[00:14:03] So there's two ways to find out what that line is.

[00:14:05] One is you can get lactate testing and I can give you very, very technical.

[00:14:10] I don't like to be a slave to the numbers.

[00:14:13] And so if my athletes like they do get those tests and they want to, they can.

[00:14:16] You don't have to.

[00:14:17] I strongly, strongly believe in an athlete really honing into how their body feels, like what are they feeling?

[00:14:25] So it's like the RPE, the rate of perceived exertion.

[00:14:28] So when we're training for those five to six months of specifically for their goal race, they are really learning about.

[00:14:35] And this goes for myself as well.

[00:14:37] You're really learning about what does this feel like?

[00:14:40] Does this feel like a two, an RPE of two, a RPE of four, of RPE of five, six, seven, eight?

[00:14:46] So you really have to start honing into like what does it feel and then how does that compare?

[00:14:51] And if you want to then compare it to your heart rate and then your paces and whatnot.

[00:14:56] So that's really important to really find what that red line is.

[00:15:02] So, again, you could do it through testing, lactate testing, which will give you a specific number.

[00:15:07] And that's trainable.

[00:15:08] That line is trainable.

[00:15:09] So that that line will move as you progress in your training, whether it's in thresholds, tempos or long run workouts.

[00:15:18] And then it will also maybe not if you're not doing a specific training program that's helping you actually go for performance goals.

[00:15:27] Okay, perfect.

[00:15:28] And I mean, I've just going to tell you, I've caught negative split one race in my whole life.

[00:15:35] And that was when I had a really good run coach and I listened to everything he said.

[00:15:39] What happened was that I think I did a 323 or something like that.

[00:15:43] And I was running according to what he said.

[00:15:46] And he had me start at almost eight minute pace and then work my way down.

[00:15:49] And I did it and it felt great at the end to where it felt so great that then I started questioning, oh, maybe I didn't leave it all out there because why am I still not feeling dead?

[00:16:02] You question what they say and then you go out a little bit too hard.

[00:16:06] What if you feel great at 10, 12, 13 and then all of a sudden you hit the wall in your training?

[00:16:12] How do you know when you're going to hit that wall when you never really do marathon pace for more than 10, 12 miles?

[00:16:22] Well, that's where the beauty of marathon programming is.

[00:16:26] So when you're coming into the race, you're coming in tapered.

[00:16:30] You're coming in rested.

[00:16:32] And so that's why the taper is effective.

[00:16:35] That's why the taper is necessary.

[00:16:37] Because if you are training truly to like your peak training weeks, if you are doing truly like the little stuff in between the weeks, then you're actually running a lot of your long runs on tired legs.

[00:16:50] And so you're supposed to be doing that.

[00:16:52] And that's why you're not always supposed to be running all of your long runs near your race pace, because then you basically you're racing, quote unquote racing every weekend.

[00:17:00] And then your body then becomes overtrained.

[00:17:02] So that's the beauty of like what a coach can do is they will program specifically.

[00:17:07] I mean, there's a periodization of your marathon programming where you build up and depending on the individual, too, like you can build up for two weeks and cut back, build up for three weeks, cut back.

[00:17:15] I see a lot of runners who do opt to run with communities, which is a really good thing for motivation, 100 percent for motivation.

[00:17:23] However, you need to run your own program, like what your body needs.

[00:17:28] Nobody is your same physiology.

[00:17:30] No one carries the same stress as you do.

[00:17:32] No one carries the same lifestyle you do.

[00:17:34] No one's going through their day to day every day.

[00:17:37] So it's really important to take those into account.

[00:17:39] And that's why a specific workout that is prescribed for a whole community doesn't hit each individual the same way.

[00:17:48] So that's kind of like it takes convincing.

[00:17:51] So my athletes once they they trust me and they're like, I get it.

[00:17:54] Like I don't like whenever you prescribe these slower race, these slow paces or these other workouts where I'm not hitting my race pace in training.

[00:18:00] But then all of a sudden on race day, I'm going and I'm and I'm actually executing like after like for their first test race or like I 100 percent trust you and I will 100 percent follow now everything.

[00:18:13] This is another thing that's really important before that your goal race, whatever your goal race is, it could be your goal race could be a 5K, a 10K, a half, a marathon, ultra.

[00:18:21] It doesn't matter.

[00:18:22] Triathlon, you want to have a test race.

[00:18:25] You want to have a practice race before your goal race.

[00:18:29] That is another data point that really, really, really helps to then see how do you respond to the stress of a race day?

[00:18:37] Because as we all know, as runners, when we wake up on the race morning, nothing will replicate the feelings of a race morning versus like a training day.

[00:18:45] Like you're not as excited, as nervous, as like there's not a lot of things chaotic like to work through.

[00:18:52] So it's really, really important to do a practice race because then you go through the motions.

[00:18:57] You kind of like work it out when there's not like your eggs are not all in that basket because just practice.

[00:19:02] It's a practice race.

[00:19:03] And then that gives another data point like how do I race?

[00:19:07] It's just like a student when they're learning and learning and learning in the classroom.

[00:19:10] And then if they take that big exam and they bomb it, they're like, why?

[00:19:14] And I actually knew all the information and I bombed this test.

[00:19:18] But what's the most important thing that we tell our students or our educators are doing telling students is take practice tests.

[00:19:25] You want to take practice tests to get that stress into your mind and automate it.

[00:19:29] And when you automate it, when you show up to the big day, the big dance, you're more automated and you can actually execute.

[00:19:36] So that execution is really important.

[00:19:38] And that comes from practicing racing.

[00:19:41] Okay, great.

[00:19:42] So with that, the races that you pick prior to a marathon, for example, are you doing a marathon prior to the marathon?

[00:19:52] Or is your test race going to be a different distance?

[00:19:55] And then how far out do you recommend that they be?

[00:19:58] Normally for most runners, the test race will be a half marathon.

[00:20:01] I really don't advise for beginners or people starting out to do a test race with a marathon because then you're just over exerting yourself and just draining yourself for your goal race.

[00:20:12] If a person is a little bit more advanced, if a person has a few years under their belt and they just want to enjoy more marathons, you're like, okay, then I know they can control themselves and they can do a practice marathon and only put 70% out there and then wait for their goal race.

[00:20:28] So that's okay.

[00:20:29] But generally speaking for most, even if they're doing their first marathon or they're looking for to BQ or they're going to sub three or they're going something, you want to try to do your test race as a half marathon.

[00:20:40] And then the timing will vary again for the individual because some individuals recover so well.

[00:20:48] And so they'll be like, is it okay if I do it a month before?

[00:20:51] It's like if you recover well and you are doing really, and you've been doing so good with your training, then a month is okay.

[00:20:57] If not, maybe two months before is a really good timing because if you do it two months before, then at least you have two months still to tweak your training to still push.

[00:21:07] Because if you're doing it basically a month before, there isn't really much that you can do for serious improvement in your marathon time.

[00:21:15] You basically want to start just putting the volume in and a specific focus to stay healthy so that you're surviving the marathon and able to, not surviving the marathon, but being able to race the marathon.

[00:21:26] So month before for some, two months before for others, anything sooner than that as a test race, you're no longer like testing really the fitness for the marathon specific goal.

[00:21:39] If people are doing it three months, it's more so like I want maybe a progress track if it's three months before or four months before.

[00:21:45] Now you're looking at progress in their own specific training blocks.

[00:21:49] And if they really are like looking for more before that, they can even do a 10K test race before their half marathon test race because racing a 10K really well, that's a really good data point.

[00:22:02] It's really challenging to race a 10K.

[00:22:04] It's not people just think like, oh, I'm just going to like, it's just double the 5K.

[00:22:08] And no, if you race it really well, you're only supposed to like slow down anywhere between five to 10 seconds on average from your 5K race pace.

[00:22:15] If you're racing the 5K well.

[00:22:16] So a lot of people are actually racing a 10K substantially slower because what is it?

[00:22:22] Is you are enduring that pain for double the distance, but you're, you have to train your mind.

[00:22:28] You have to train your mind to accept that, that kind of discomfort that you feel.

[00:22:32] So that's kind of 10K and half are really great test races for the marathon.

[00:22:37] Okay, perfect.

[00:22:38] And I really want to talk to you about training the mind, but a couple more questions in regards to the pacing strategies.

[00:22:44] Let's talk about flat races.

[00:22:46] Like we got Chicago, we got London, we've got Berlin.

[00:22:49] What are your numbers that you give to your athletes trying to get them to negative split?

[00:22:55] So do you tell them go out at 90% of your marathon timing or how does that work?

[00:23:03] And then also compare that to races like we've got New York coming up.

[00:23:06] How do you set the pacing strategies knowing that there is some hilly terrain happening?

[00:23:12] Yeah. So technically speaking, if you race the marathon at your peak performance fitness,

[00:23:19] you should be even splitting it or negative splitting it anywhere between one to two minutes.

[00:23:24] Now, if you pause to split it one to two minutes, you're still actually raced it really well.

[00:23:29] That just means that something went wrong a little bit and then you were able to mentally and physically overcome it and you still raced it pretty close to your race potential.

[00:23:39] And there is actually data out there that shows that this is time and time again for professionals,

[00:23:46] for people who are running like men and into 210 and under, for women who are running in 225 and under,

[00:23:52] for age groupers, for elites, and then for us, other like mere mortals, time and time again,

[00:23:58] when you are racing at your peak performance, you want to even split it or you want to negative split it one to two minutes.

[00:24:03] Now, if you ever negative split five, seven, 10 minutes, then you left too much in the bank for the first half.

[00:24:11] If you are positive splitting again, past three, four, five minutes and beyond, you went out too fast for that first half.

[00:24:19] So when it's a flat marathon like London, Berlin, Chicago, or other smaller races, then you want to target like even.

[00:24:28] If, if you know your athlete and you know your athlete is willing to take in the pain,

[00:24:34] then you can actually aim for a negative split.

[00:24:37] It's like negative splitting is really a mental thing at towards that second,

[00:24:40] because we all have the physical capability, but we will,

[00:24:43] there's a mental negotiation happening for out there for all of us.

[00:24:47] Like we're negotiating like, oh, you know, what if I slow down a little bit or like,

[00:24:50] oh, this is going to get those cramp is kind of hurting or, oh, like I have a side stitch or, oh, like,

[00:24:54] so there's a mental negotiation happening for all of us.

[00:24:57] And I see it in runners who are running, you know, 220 marathons, 240 marathons,

[00:25:02] go on trying to go for their sub three.

[00:25:03] And it happens to all of us, even like trying to go sub four or sub five.

[00:25:07] So we just have to then train that mind so that even splitting is best for the flat.

[00:25:14] If they're very mentally powerful, then I'll target them.

[00:25:17] The negative split one or two, that's the hope.

[00:25:20] Like if I know that they are just, they need a little bit, a little more conservative,

[00:25:26] then I will just try to slow it down only like a minute.

[00:25:29] Like we're tweaking seconds here, really tweaking seconds in the first half of their pacing

[00:25:33] so that they're not going to go into that red line zone or they're not going to go into,

[00:25:38] you want to get to the halfway point, like very comfortable in a sense for most athletes, for most.

[00:25:43] That's why I tell my athletes and I tell the community and I tell the public is,

[00:25:47] you want to get to that halfway point.

[00:25:49] Yeah, you just run a half marathon, but you want to be there pretty comfortable.

[00:25:53] You want to like, you shouldn't be like already running a 10K breathing rate.

[00:25:57] Like, and I listen to runners.

[00:25:59] Like that's why I never in the over 600 races that I run, I never run with music.

[00:26:05] I never won because like, that's the beauty of races.

[00:26:08] If you want to hear the environment, you want to hear, but you also need to listen to your breathing.

[00:26:13] You need to listen to what's happening in your mind and really focus in on like what's going on.

[00:26:19] And what I do hear a lot too is runners, runners.

[00:26:23] What's their breathing rate?

[00:26:24] What are their, what's their effort?

[00:26:26] And if like they're at the 5K, 10K mark and they're already like,

[00:26:29] like, I'll see you.

[00:26:31] I'm going to, I know I'm going to see you like at mile 15 and 18 and time and time again.

[00:26:35] I always, always do.

[00:26:36] So that's why your breathing rate in that first,

[00:26:39] especially those first 10 miles should be pretty comfortable.

[00:26:42] It should be like, yeah, you're working.

[00:26:44] And yeah, you're going really close to that race pace that you're,

[00:26:47] you're targeting for that goal time.

[00:26:49] But again, you should not be breathing hard at that point.

[00:26:52] Like where like you're racing a 10K.

[00:26:55] This is some awesome insight and so much for us to learn from.

[00:26:59] So, so let's talk about the fueling and hydration strategies a little bit

[00:27:04] and why that is so important for, you know, when it comes to negative splitting.

[00:27:10] You want to train your body to be able to consume the amount of hydration and fueling

[00:27:16] that you're going to be using in a race day.

[00:27:18] So that comes of course, with training your GI track during training.

[00:27:22] And it, I mean, even some of my athletes felt guilty to this.

[00:27:25] It's like, oh, I didn't feel hungry.

[00:27:26] I was, or I was too mentally busy.

[00:27:28] And I didn't, I didn't hydrate.

[00:27:29] I didn't fuel.

[00:27:29] And it's like, I'm telling them, remind them over and over.

[00:27:32] Like you need to, you need to.

[00:27:33] So that's the number one thing is that you need to train your GI track and you train it

[00:27:37] during your long runs.

[00:27:39] And any key training sessions that you have is consuming carbohydrates, consuming electrolytes

[00:27:44] and water.

[00:27:45] And there are tons and tons of brands out there to choose from so that you can explore and

[00:27:50] experiment to see what works for you.

[00:27:52] Like for me, I have my favorites and I use them in training all the time.

[00:27:56] But because I've also been racing for 27 years and running for almost 30, I've, I've, my

[00:28:01] GI track has tried almost everything out there.

[00:28:05] So I have a pretty, pretty resilient GI track where that's a really good thing because it

[00:28:10] helps me race.

[00:28:10] If there's something that upsets my stomach, whether it's during race weekend or race day,

[00:28:15] it can withstand that.

[00:28:16] But that's, that's, um, it takes training to do that.

[00:28:19] And so if you just keep exposing yourself, so whatever it is that you've practiced in training,

[00:28:24] you want to make sure you stick to it on race day.

[00:28:27] A lot of times I see athletes choose to just be like, their race starts to go wrong or they

[00:28:34] start to feel like cramps or they start to feel like just that jostling in their stomach.

[00:28:38] And so they, they mentally choose like, I don't want this last gel.

[00:28:41] I don't want to, I don't, I don't care about taking this gel or I don't care about, I'm going

[00:28:44] to skip this A station because you're so uncomfortable already.

[00:28:47] You're racing.

[00:28:48] And I do, I've seen it in like athletes that I'm pacing.

[00:28:52] Um, I've seen it like in my brother or, or it just, it happens to me too.

[00:28:57] Like, like, ah, forget it.

[00:28:58] You're like, I don't want anymore.

[00:28:59] I don't want anymore.

[00:29:00] But you have to stick to it.

[00:29:02] You have to stick to it.

[00:29:03] That's the biggest thing.

[00:29:04] So number one, train your GI track during training.

[00:29:07] Number two, stick to it on race day, because we all are guilty of just saying, forget it.

[00:29:14] I don't want to drink this aid station.

[00:29:16] I don't want to fuel this last few gels.

[00:29:18] I'm already like, you know, bombing my time.

[00:29:21] Like I don't really care, but we also have to think about the next race, the next day,

[00:29:26] the next week.

[00:29:27] Because if you hydrate and fuel yourself properly, you will recover better and faster.

[00:29:33] You shouldn't be completing your training long runs or your race day and feeling like dead

[00:29:39] and ending up in the medical tent.

[00:29:40] That means you are way too depleted.

[00:29:42] And sometimes it happens, especially if the weather conditions are really extreme.

[00:29:46] If it's really high temperatures or really high humidity, especially people will just

[00:29:50] are not consuming enough to, to compensate what they're losing.

[00:29:54] So it's like, that's really, really important with the hydration and the fueling.

[00:29:58] Perfect.

[00:29:59] So that really goes hand in hand together.

[00:30:01] As we know, you know, nutrition goes with the exertion feelings and all that stuff.

[00:30:07] So we've got that.

[00:30:08] But let's move on to probably the best part, the mind, the mind and the mental trickery and

[00:30:14] all that stuff that's going on.

[00:30:15] Maybe tell us a little bit about how you can have a negative split and what goes on in that

[00:30:19] mind, what you have to do.

[00:30:21] Oh, this is the bread and butter and a secret sauce of my, my racing and how I train my athletes.

[00:30:26] Uh, just definitely the mind.

[00:30:29] It takes practice.

[00:30:30] It's just as much as important as training your body.

[00:30:32] And we neglect it.

[00:30:34] And we think that we're only going to be training our mind race week or race day.

[00:30:38] It's supposed to be starting from the moment that you commit to this goal.

[00:30:41] And so I, I talk to my athletes on a regular basis, whether it's through text or email.

[00:30:46] And then I also, um, check in with them and phone calls, whether it's a, like a race

[00:30:51] week call, or it's also monthly like recap call.

[00:30:54] And we're really discussing, like, you're not just training a runner.

[00:30:58] You're training an athlete.

[00:31:00] You're training a human being.

[00:31:01] And there comes a lot of factors into that.

[00:31:04] And so that what they're carrying inside of them in their heart, their emotions, um, the

[00:31:09] amount of stress they're carrying, the amount of like load, like all of that comes into play

[00:31:13] with training the mind.

[00:31:15] And so there's a lot of strategies as far as for like stress management, mental strengthening,

[00:31:21] mental fortitude, um, and which is what there's a lot of resources out there, but I try to be

[00:31:26] that guide for my athletes.

[00:31:27] And I also practice that within myself.

[00:31:29] So constantly.

[00:31:31] And I learned that very, very, very long time ago, uh, 27, 28 years ago when I started

[00:31:37] racing and I started, and I learned it from my dad.

[00:31:39] My dad's mental fortitude is absolutely out of this world, out of this world.

[00:31:47] I, I admire my dad.

[00:31:49] My dad is my inspiration.

[00:31:50] I don't, what, what he has gone through in life.

[00:31:54] I mean, we all go through life challenges, obstacles, setbacks, things that floor you.

[00:32:00] And, and when I see my dad battle and go and fight through those things, it's, I can see his

[00:32:07] mental fortitude and his resilience.

[00:32:08] And that's taught me through example by him.

[00:32:10] It's taught me to be like strong mentally and work on that, work on those through me, because

[00:32:15] how we're navigating life is really important into mentally like strengthening our, our,

[00:32:19] our mind.

[00:32:20] So it's, it's a daily practice.

[00:32:23] It's a forever practice.

[00:32:24] And it's also, it helps us in, in our life and our outlook of life and, and how we, we view

[00:32:30] things and whether we wake up positive or negative and how we process our emotions.

[00:32:35] So all of that comes into play in, in your mental training.

[00:32:39] But the big, big, big fundamental thing is this is probably now cliche because you hear

[00:32:45] it now on the videos and social media, a lot is finding your why or, or what is your

[00:32:49] why?

[00:32:49] That powerful reason every single person is doing this goal or going after this goal for

[00:32:56] a very powerful reason.

[00:32:57] And you have to remind yourself of that powerful reason, what it is.

[00:33:00] It's, it's that one reason that basically clenches your heart and you don't have to make

[00:33:06] that reason public.

[00:33:07] It's, it's no one else's, but there's no, it's just yours.

[00:33:11] It's in your possession.

[00:33:12] And when I really think about that, that reasons and that reason changes too, it can change per

[00:33:18] race.

[00:33:18] It could change per year.

[00:33:20] It can change per stage of your life.

[00:33:22] And that's the power of, of, of who we are as human beings going through life and going

[00:33:26] through different life stages.

[00:33:27] And so reminding yourself of that reason and giving yourself that most powerful reason

[00:33:32] why you are willing to endure the pain you're going to feel on race day, because this is a

[00:33:38] celebration of your training.

[00:33:40] This is a celebration of your ability and gift to move and to run.

[00:33:44] And so it's, it's something that's just extremely powerful.

[00:33:49] And you don't start the night before the race.

[00:33:52] You don't start race week.

[00:33:53] You start from the beginning and you get, you get through that and you, you basically

[00:33:57] improve through it.

[00:33:58] You buy, by practice, buy through practice.

[00:34:01] And so I do that for myself through, for every goal race.

[00:34:04] That's why I get the common question is like, do you still get nervous for your races?

[00:34:08] Like a hundred percent I do, but I, I've learned to practice and know to channel that nervousness

[00:34:14] into excitement, into energy, into empowerment.

[00:34:18] And, and, and I am no, I'm not perfect at it.

[00:34:21] That's why I continuously practice it.

[00:34:23] And even like the, the, the best Buddha, like the best monks out there are, are practicing

[00:34:27] that mindfulness.

[00:34:28] It's a mind it's now we use the word mindfulness or mental strength.

[00:34:32] 27 years ago used to be called, or he was more commonly referred to as sports psychology.

[00:34:37] So I was actually reading about sports psychology back then.

[00:34:40] And I would do visualization tasks back then.

[00:34:43] And when I was competing in high school.

[00:34:45] And so I was like, I learned that that was my edge.

[00:34:47] I was like, if I can, if I can train my mind, there's only so much I can do with my physical

[00:34:52] ability.

[00:34:53] And I was progressing and I was getting faster.

[00:34:55] But I was like, what else can I do to help myself get better?

[00:34:58] And that's where it was like sleep, nutrition, mind strength, like the sports psychology of

[00:35:04] sports.

[00:35:05] That's like every act.

[00:35:06] Like think about when we watch football, we watch baseball or basketball.

[00:35:09] All of those athletes out there are talented.

[00:35:12] All of those athletes are working hard and training.

[00:35:14] The last final touch literally is what is that athlete then meant?

[00:35:19] Where is their mental space?

[00:35:20] How are they willing to take the pain of the game when they're out there to really execute,

[00:35:25] execute everything that we've done during training?

[00:35:28] So that's where the mind comes in.

[00:35:30] I love this.

[00:35:32] I love how much emphasis you have that in your coaching and how important it is to visualize

[00:35:36] stuff.

[00:35:37] To give you an example, the winner of the Chicago marathon this year, I know him and I was running

[00:35:42] with him and I asked him the day before the race, I said, what are you going to do tomorrow?

[00:35:45] And he says, I'm going to win that race.

[00:35:47] I want to win that race.

[00:35:48] And I'm like, do you think you can do that?

[00:35:50] And he says, yes, there's no reason I couldn't do that.

[00:35:52] I think I can do this and I'm going to do it.

[00:35:55] And fast forward, there he goes winning that race.

[00:35:58] And, you know, I interview a lot of running coaches and I get a lot of information on technicalities

[00:36:04] and numbers and all that stuff.

[00:36:06] But what I always have found really hard to come across is coaches that really do stuff

[00:36:14] that works on the mindset, because that is something we can't see.

[00:36:17] We can see our split numbers.

[00:36:19] We can see the number on the scale, but we cannot see what goes on in the head.

[00:36:22] So maybe, you know, as a last question, talk to us a little bit about how your coaching works

[00:36:28] and how you structure it, not just, you know, the training, because obviously you do a good

[00:36:32] job with that, but also the mental training and what you do with that.

[00:36:37] That's one of the biggest feedbacks and compliments that I do get from my athletes is that they

[00:36:42] tell me often, and whether it's male, female, whatever level, if they're training for a

[00:36:47] sub three or for training for a four or five hour or BQ, it's like, like Nadia, I love

[00:36:51] your philosophy.

[00:36:52] I love how you train me because it isn't just, you're not just prescribing workouts.

[00:36:57] And I'm not the coach for that for you.

[00:36:59] If you just looking for, you can find free training plans online.

[00:37:03] No problem.

[00:37:04] You can find also automated training plans where like people are selling them like, oh yeah,

[00:37:09] they're written by me.

[00:37:10] You can get a three months, six months, you know, because they want to kind of dust their

[00:37:13] hands off and be like, here you go.

[00:37:15] Like this is written by me and these are workouts or they're going to work.

[00:37:17] And those can work for people too.

[00:37:19] However, I'm very, very passionate about my coaching and I'm very, that's why I keep my

[00:37:25] roster at a certain level and I, and I cap it and I'm not going to put more because I

[00:37:28] want to give that, that sincere care to each of my athletes.

[00:37:33] And I tell them like, I'm not just training you for this goal race.

[00:37:36] I'm not just training you for this, this marathon.

[00:37:38] Like I, to me, you're an athlete.

[00:37:40] You have to look at all of the aspects of being an athlete.

[00:37:43] And I'm also like deep down, I've always wanted to be like a life coach and a health

[00:37:48] coach.

[00:37:48] And that comes a lot with the power of the mind of, of just preparing that human being.

[00:37:54] And we have so much going on in our, in our, in our lives that, you know, life just teaches

[00:38:00] you to, to navigate, but sometimes it doesn't teach you.

[00:38:03] You're like, how do I get through this tough time when I still want to go after this goal?

[00:38:07] And so we get stuck in this rut.

[00:38:09] So when I, when I start off with my athletes, like we do that, you know, the onboarding with

[00:38:13] an athlete questionnaire and a call and I, we get to know each other.

[00:38:17] And again, it's like, I don't put myself out there and push myself like, oh, I'm a coach.

[00:38:22] I'm a coach.

[00:38:23] I'm a coach.

[00:38:23] I'm a coach.

[00:38:24] My athletes, a lot of them come to me through referral and they come to me because they already

[00:38:28] trust me.

[00:38:29] And that's really, really, really important to an athlete.

[00:38:32] Whoever, whoever is their coach, they do have to trust them.

[00:38:35] They have to be aligned with like kind of their philosophy as well.

[00:38:39] And be like, I'm willing to take what you tell me to do and follow it because I trust

[00:38:43] that you are actually over like caring for me and looking after me and really, really

[00:38:48] guiding me.

[00:38:48] And I think that's the biggest thing is that what my athletes do see is that I sincerely

[00:38:52] care.

[00:38:52] And I do because I'm very passionate about education.

[00:38:56] I mean, I come from an education background.

[00:38:58] I, I come from a psychology background.

[00:39:00] I also am very passionate about sports nutrition.

[00:39:03] And when I was in the classroom, when I was teaching high school biology for 10 years, I

[00:39:08] wore myself out for those first few, few years because I cared so much.

[00:39:13] I cared for every single one of my students and I wanted to help the high achieving one,

[00:39:19] the very highly motivated one.

[00:39:21] And the one that was just not motivated.

[00:39:22] I'm like, how can I help this student be motivated?

[00:39:26] And I hit my ceiling because I can only have so much energy output.

[00:39:30] And unfortunately, our educational system here in California is pretty much undervalued.

[00:39:35] So I was like, how can I help people, but at a deeper level?

[00:39:40] And, you know, that comes from that one-on-one bond and relationship that you create.

[00:39:45] And that's kind of what I create with my athletes is that, that relationship.

[00:39:49] And I don't want to get emotional because like there, there are some of my athletes that

[00:39:54] have stayed with me for, for years.

[00:39:57] Like they'll, they'll go on with me for a season and they'll take a break.

[00:39:59] They'll come back or they stay with me continuously because of the relationship we create.

[00:40:04] And the beautiful thing, some of them have said, like, like Nadia, we don't just see you

[00:40:07] as a coach.

[00:40:08] Like you are now, like, we're a friend, like you're a friend.

[00:40:13] And I think I, I, they share like life stages and losses that they go through with their

[00:40:17] life.

[00:40:18] And that's how I can help you more because that vulnerability that you share in that connection,

[00:40:23] that bond, it's almost like, you know, when a child is trying to make their parent proud.

[00:40:27] And when you're, when you're an athlete, you want to make your coach proud.

[00:40:30] And, and I sincerely am invested in my athletes.

[00:40:34] And, and I can see when sometimes like they text me, like, like, I hope you're proud.

[00:40:39] Like, Oh God, are you kidding me?

[00:40:40] I know what you were going through.

[00:40:41] I know you, I can see your splits.

[00:40:44] And now that we're talking, I know, I know you left it all out there.

[00:40:48] And that's just the beautiful thing about the relationship that you have to create.

[00:40:51] And so that's why I, I don't believe strongly in getting too much into technicality,

[00:40:56] because you can perfectly do everything on paper.

[00:41:00] And then if that, if there's no bond and you're not really executing, like, and training the mind,

[00:41:04] it can go all out the door on the, on race day.

[00:41:07] So I want my athletes to enjoy the journey as cliche as that sounds, but it really is a

[00:41:13] transform, transformative process that you go through a transformative from your inner,

[00:41:18] inner soul.

[00:41:19] And that's kind of how I approach my philosophy with coaching with my athletes.

[00:41:24] I love this.

[00:41:25] And I'm going to link everything to your website and everything.

[00:41:29] So thank you so much, Nadia.

[00:41:30] I really appreciate it.

[00:41:31] Oh, thank you.

[00:41:35] Thank you, Nadia, for talking to me about negative splitting and all the tips and tricks that

[00:41:41] you have up your sleeve.

[00:41:42] If you guys are interested in contacting Nadia, I'm putting her link tree in our show notes.

[00:41:48] There you can see how to contact her.

[00:41:50] If you're interested in coaching with her, you can also click on her Instagram and follow

[00:41:54] her for more tips and tricks.

[00:41:56] So that's it for today.

[00:41:58] You guys stay tuned for next week when we will have a Q&A with another running coach.

[00:42:03] Hopefully you guys got some value from this episode.

[00:42:06] And if you did, I always appreciate a five star review.

[00:42:10] And with that, have a great week of running.

[00:42:16] Thanks for tuning in.

[00:42:18] For more information and marathon running news, please head to www.marathonrunningpodcast.com

[00:42:24] and we'll be back next week.

[00:42:38] Are you looking for the perfect apparel that mirrors your love for running?

[00:42:42] Look no further than Run Swag, the go-to store by runners for runners.

[00:42:47] From witty tees to hoodies that commemorate your marathon majors to crops that get you motivated,

[00:42:53] Run Swag's got you covered.

[00:42:54] Discover the perfect blend of comfort and style.

[00:42:57] Visit www.runswag.com.

[00:43:01] Run Swag.

[00:43:01] There's something for every runner.

[00:43:03] Run Swag.

[00:43:05] Run Swag.

[00:43:05] Run Swag.