224. Speed vs. Endurance for Marathoners

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you like the new Flensburg beach?

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Strong!

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Huh?

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Strong!

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Huh?

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Again?

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Strong!

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, strong as the coast wind and at the same time mild as the sunlight.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Flensburg beach, unfiltered like the real North.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Drift to the sea!

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from WE GOT THE RUNS.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Join us in our running community for weekly content that is motivational, educational and

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_04]: inspirational and let the Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_04]: the finish line and beyond.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey runners and welcome to episode 224.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: My name is Letty.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Ryan.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And we are here presenting you with the question, speed vs. endurance.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Ryan, what are your thoughts on this?

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you need both.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like easy to think that if you're running a marathon, you just train

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: for endurance.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But endurance could mean going slow for a really long period of time and you may

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: never increase your speed unless you also do speed training.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The inverse might not be true though because I heard that the sprinters in the Olympics,

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they say, you know, what's the longest you run and they don't even run a mile.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you just want speed, just train speed.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't need to train endurance.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you want to run marathons and be fast, you have to do both probably.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: That is so true.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And that kind of reminded me of that Olympian that I met at the airport and

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I asked him how many miles he ran.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_04]: He was a 400-meter killer on Instagram.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_04]: He was running the 400-meter event obviously.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And he said he wasn't even running a mile a week.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I'm sure he does get close to it by doing the reps that he does.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's zero endurance training.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's an interesting concept.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, no, I mean, it's just like you said, you know, you want to build

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: endurance, you just do endurance.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But if your goal is to run a faster marathon, ultimately how much can speed

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_04]: help you?

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And for that problem, we contacted coach Chris Knighton who is currently

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_04]: writing his second book.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And one of the topics of the book is that whole speed versus endurance.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So we thought it'd be great topic to bring onto today's podcast.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Plus less important in shorter races, but in longer races, if you increase

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: your speed, you significantly change the amount of time you're running.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's very true.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And I can attest to that not because of a race, but because I hate

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: treadmill running and I would tell myself, OK, let it go.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Run five, six miles on a treadmill.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I would get so bored by the first mile that I would tell myself just run

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: however fast you can and you get to stop when you reach mile three.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's all these psychological games you can play with yourself in

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: order to train and turn.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like you said, you could you could set a goal for mileage or you

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: could set a goal for time.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, you can vary that too.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And that might be helpful sometimes in your training.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So, let me you want to tell the listeners about your YouTube giveaway?

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I do, Ryan.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So we are giving away a couple of shoes by Hoka and you will find all

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: the instructions on YouTube.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: We're probably going to do it this week.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You can find us by going to youtube.com forward slash at running podcast.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you'll probably see a video popping up shortly with the

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: instructions on how you can win those shoes.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so we'll get some free shoes.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So some small talk.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We're actually doing a last minute trip to L.A.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to do some running this weekend, probably.

[00:03:40] Right?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we'll do some trail running and a lot of hiking.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Our kids are now old enough to explore the mountains with us.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: We won't have to carry them, hopefully.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And so super excited for that.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're from the L.A.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: running community and you see us out on the trail, say hi to us.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know if we're going to do any.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Usually we do the inspiration point run if anyone knows that that is

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: or that area.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, it'll be fun to have the change of environment and climate

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit cooler, a little bit better running weather gets you

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: excited to go running again.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And unfortunately, we're doing this little trip right before my

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: trip next weekend from Florida to Seattle for the tunnel marathon.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know, I've lowered my expectations for that marathon.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I'm just thinking about finishing it, but it'll be it'll be fun anyway.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So you want to get into today's podcast?

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds awesome.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Without any further ado, we're now going to play our conversation with Chris Knighton.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm back on with Chris Knighton.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Chris, thank you so much for joining me again.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Eddie.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having me back on.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I always enjoy being on your show.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And we enjoy having you and you are coming out.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_04]: You're coming out with a new book.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And one of the chapters in the book is very intriguing.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It's speed versus endurance.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's maybe just talk very broadly about why you're even raising that question.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I'm working on my second book.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm tentatively calling it Ageless Trackstar, how to become a master's track

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: runner in your 30s, 40s and 50s.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know this is a marathon podcast and most of your listeners are probably

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_03]: road runners interested in running the marathon.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And really that had been my journey in running for like the past nine or 10 years too.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But about three years ago, I became a track and cross country coach at my local high school here

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: and got exposed to what running as a kid was like for the first time.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I never ran when I was in school.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I picked it up when I was like 25 or 26.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So the whole concept of running on the track, running cross country, running for competition

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and on a team like that was foreign to me.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And as marathon runners, we pretty quickly move up in distance.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I think most of the adults I talk to when they start to run, maybe their first goal is to run a 5K,

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: then it's to move up to a 10K, then a half.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they feel like they've done pretty good with the half, they move up to the marathon.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And generally I find adults want to prioritize building their endurance over building their speed.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, the more ambitious marathoners, they also do want to run fast.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So many people have the goal of, for example, running a BQ.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That's probably the number one goal that I hear from ambitious road marathoners.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But for those people who never ran track in school when they were younger, never ran cross country,

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't spend a lot of time developing their speed.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_03]: They've really left a lot on the table by going so quickly to the marathon.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So in the past year or two, I've transitioned from running the marathon primarily to actually focusing on shorter distances.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Over the first year, I focused on running the mile and that's been my main event.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I've absolutely loved it.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm writing this book to teach adult runners about the world of track and field and training your speed as a distance runner

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and to teach the importance of working on your speed as you age so that you don't lose that

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and that you can not only hopefully learn to appreciate this world of shorter distance running and track and field,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: which I think is really fun and something that more adults could really enjoy if they tried it out.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's also going to make you a much faster, longer distance road runner marathoner as well.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's kind of the setup and why I'm writing this book.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And this whole concept of training your speed versus endurance is a really interesting one.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's one that I've learned a lot about in the last two years since I started focusing on training for the track and coaching high schoolers.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I love this and I've kind of been a witness since I've known you for a couple of years now,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_04]: following your journey and seeing how much faster you are getting in those mile events and all that from your posts.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But I agree with you completely.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_04]: The main goal for us as distance runners that did not run as college athletes is just completing.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And then eventually, once we complete a few, we wonder, could we get faster?

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we kind of dabble into speed work and add that to it rather than just building endurance.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: But with that, so let's talk about the focus, right?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Because obviously, as I've already read that part of your book, it's hard to focus on both.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So as a marathon runner, do you believe that runners should prioritize either speed or endurance at different stages?

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And if so, why or why not?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so that's the tricky thing with marathon running.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say just as a rule to keep in mind, you can either focus on improving your speed or focus on improving your endurance.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But you can't do both at the same time.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: The tricky thing with that, though, is competitive distance runners.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: We really do need to be focusing on all components of our fitness throughout the year.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But you want to prioritize one aspect of your development at a time.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, in any given month that you're training, you want to be thinking, OK, is this a speed development focused phase of my training?

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Or is this an endurance focused phase of my training?

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And which component you're going to want to focus on really depends a lot about who you are, your background in running, your goals, what you're trying to achieve, and then like what races you have on the calendar and how you prioritize those.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Training for a marathon is primarily a training for a marathon is primarily something where you're training your endurance.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you need to be able to run 26.2 miles as fast as possible, but you can't run a fast marathon if you're not fast to begin with.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And the best way to get fast is to focus on getting faster over shorter distances.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And then once you've done that, learn to extend that speed to the longer distances.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So for someone who's primarily focused on the marathon, you really need to choose, you know, which which am I going to focus on now?

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you can't do both at the same time.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Very well, very effectively.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Unless of course you are Hassan Safan, which I'm sure you've watched it.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But for our listeners, just to remind them, she is the lady that ran the 5K, 10K and marathon in the Olympic event and got medals for all three of them.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Which, by the way, I was going to ask you that, but I guess I might as well ask you this on the air.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_04]: How is that even possible? Right. Because she's training for these shorter distance events and then also the marathon.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So on a side note, what do you think went on in there? What did she focus on?

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, Fana San is amazing. I mean, she's arguably the greatest female distance runner of all time.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03]: That can be said, if not maybe, maybe number two, but she's in that conversation for sure.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the thing is, she's moved up in distance still.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, she used to be an 800 and 1500 meter runner.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it was at the was that the World Championships in Doha, excuse me, Doha.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_03]: She she medaled in the 800 meters and the the.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the 10K she did like the she did like maybe it was the 1500 and the 10K.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I may be getting this wrong and you could you could edit this out because it's kind of messy if you want.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But she's she's shown incredible range over her over the years.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, recently she moved up to the marathon.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think she's undefeated in marathon so far. Her first one was London.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_03]: She won that, which was a shock.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: She she then ran Chicago and I think ran the second fastest time ever for a female, which was amazing at Chicago last year.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And then obviously won the Olympics this year and Tokyo.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Did she do Tokyo? She ran in Tokyo as well.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. Did she win Tokyo? I.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's that's amazing.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I mean, it's a fun.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Is is absolutely incredible.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, I think one of the best stories of the Olympics this year was.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, certainly what she accomplished and the amazing thing is like when she came in to the Olympics,

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: if you know, if you were reading online what people are saying.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think she was considered really a favorite in the five K or 10K.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think in the marathon, people knew she would do good.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But like her track times weren't super impressive this year prior to the Olympics.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of people were saying, like, oh, you know, maybe that shift to the marathon has hurt her speed too much.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe she won't be too competitive in the five care 10K.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think in the pre-race interviews, she was even saying things like, yeah, I'm just here to, you know, do my best and have fun.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And she wasn't making big statements about trying to win.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, of course, she got she got three medals and came in first in the in the marathon.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But she's she's absolutely incredible.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So she's kind of the exception to the rule, right?

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely incredible. But yeah, but the five K, 10K in marathon are all long distance events.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things I want to talk about here today when it comes to developing your speed is actually going even shorter than that.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So for marathoners to really develop their speed, they need to be thinking more about training for the like the mile and the five K.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So. Yeah, so I saw is amazing.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah.

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[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying focusing on the mile and the five K.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Why are you saying that and not something that's a little bit longer distance?

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_04]: So how does that really help when we develop that type of speed?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just going to I'm just going to bring up some some notes here.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So the main thing that you're trying to develop when you're developing your capacity for speed is you're trying to improve your the the the strength and concentration of fast twitch muscle fibers in your body.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the muscle fibers that allow us to generate explosive power, quick bursts of speeds, let us run high intensity for short distances.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're trying to train neuromuscular coordination so that we can move our limbs as fast as possible.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And for anyone who watched the Olympics, you see a race like the five care 10 K on the track and they're running a pretty steady pace.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then all of a sudden the last lap comes and they just like sprint that last quarter mile.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: That's because those athletes have really developed their their fast twitch muscle fibers, their ability to generate explosive power and quick bursts, even after the end of a long endurance event like five care 10 K.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And for those who watch the marathon, so fun has son, she basically sat behind the leaders for the entire race.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I love about her, she doesn't even wear a watch.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_03]: She's just running by feel sitting behind the leaders.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when it came down to the final two runners, it was her and the world record holder from Ethiopia who is leading the race.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And she just out kicked her and dropped her like like she was nothing.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It was amazing. And that's because Saffan has incredible speed built up.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Her kick is amazing.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, she's still probably one of the best 1500 meter runners in the world.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And you in marathoners need to develop that capacity to run fast in order to get the most out of themselves.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Which that is, I mean, now I'm just thinking about that, that kick in the finish and the drop in and how fast it was.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But so, so the ability to bring that in towards the end of the race was another thing that really amazed me because I know that we can all have our little kicks, but we don't really have them towards the end of the race of that capacity.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So like you're saying, it feels like we're leaving a lot left on the table.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_04]: How much of an improvement for runners that have not focused on speed, but rather endurance?

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_04]: How much do you think could be a ballpark of improvement per runner just percentage wise in your opinion?

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot. I mean, I think it's the main thing that's going to help someone get to the next level when they're running, whatever that means for you.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So like, let's just take someone who wants to run a BQ and let's just, let's say your Boston qualifying time is 340.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's suppose your personal best is 410.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're 30 minutes off the BQ and maybe you've gotten to that 410 by picking up running later in life, doing 5Ks, 10Ks halves, moving your way up to the marathon.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe you've run a few marathons and maybe you've seen improvement as you've gotten more experienced.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, you've struggled to get under four hours and you're like, how am I ever going to get all the way down to 340 and make this huge jump?

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're that if you're like listening to me describe this and you're like, oh, that kind of sounds like me.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's two things that really improve somebody's performances radically with the marathon.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The first one is simply running more miles.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's not really what I'm here to talk about today.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Running more miles will help.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_03]: However, if you're not all that fast to begin with, I don't think running more miles is necessarily the right answer.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You always want to work on developing your speed first before you run more miles because miles can have kind of diminishing returns.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But developing your speed is there's a lot of untapped potential there.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you're someone who's never really done much workouts or maybe you've done like some marathon pace running, some tempo running, maybe some short interval type stuff.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: But never really spent a lot of time doing intervals and doing faster speed work.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's it can be game changing for people.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like I've coached people who've taken half an hour off their their time, an hour off their time in some cases in the marathon just by, you know, getting on a training plan that incorporates things like

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: the correct balance of speed work and endurance work, you know, daily strides, form drills, doing a good warm up.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: That's going to teach your body to fire fast by doing different types of drills and exercises that improve your coordination so that you can run fast when you call upon your body to do it.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, these kind of things are really game changing for somebody.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So to put a percentage on it, I know I'm kind of beating around the bush, but say it can make you 25 percent better.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's that big of a deal.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe since that beats the alpha flies, vapor flies and all of these percentages of shoes, you know, the five percent.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So this is like a huge thing.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah. I would say let me spitball on this because I think this is fun.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_03]: If Alpha flies make you four percent better following a good training plan is with with, you know, let's say it's like an 80 20 training plan.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully most of us nurse are familiar with that, like 20 percent speed work, 80 percent easy running.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's going to make you like 50 percent better versus doing nothing.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Increasing your mileage, you know, doubling your mileage and doing that safely is going to make you like 25 percent better.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And adding in speed work is going to make you like 25 to 30 percent better.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Like all these training the right way is always going to be so much more powerful than than just getting better shoes.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But when you when you're doing everything the right way with your training and you're focusing on speed work and in mileage and endurance running and doing it all at the right periods of time, get those extra shoes gives you that extra boost.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And it does matter.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah. No kidding.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And OK, so since we're playing that game with percentage numbers, let's talk about people that are currently training for a marathon that have their 80 20 with the 20 percent speed.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_04]: What if they were to add, you know, once their fall race is over, what if they were to add two, three months of training for just a five K and then would hop back into a marathon running plan for a spring marathon?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: What are your thoughts on that and how much improvement, you know, since we're playing with those numbers could get?

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: We're just adding that five K plan to that.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, sure. Yeah.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's and that's I think what marathoners want to try to do.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're all I always recommend don't do more than two or three marathons in a row.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Always take a break in there to focus on something shorter like the five K or 10 K or even track like I'm encouraging folks to do in my book here.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think that obviously I'm kind of just making up numbers here, but based on my experience, you know, doing that five K training and taking three months to focus on that could easily make you 10 20.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Good. Let's say 1010 percent better to 20 percent better, obviously in three months.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to say.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But you know, if you're doing stuff you've never done before, if you're challenging yourself in ways you've never done before, your body is going to adapt in dramatic ways, especially for newer athletes.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: This is even more important.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It gets harder to improve the longer you've been running.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But doing new things and challenging yourself in new ways is always helpful.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Lately, I've done kind of my own email list and on my website and Instagram and stuff.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been talking a lot about form drills, the importance of doing form drills and a good dynamic warm up before your speed workouts.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I recorded a video recently of me doing the one that I like to do and I shared that with my athletes.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that just doing a good dynamic warm up like you see pros do maybe at a track meets if you're watching the live feed and like the warm up area, doing that kind of thing.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I think alone can make someone like 10 percent better.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_03]: If you take two people, one person just like shows up, doesn't do a warm up or like jogs a little bit, stretches a little bit and then races a race versus someone who does like a really good dynamic warm up with form drills and and plyometrics and stuff like that.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that that person will be 10 percent better.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like a secret weapon that 99 percent of adult runners are clueless to.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's a really powerful thing that you can take and improve your running with.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Nice, nice form drills.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. And what about what you were saying for newer runners?

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_04]: The whole track scene and dynamic workouts and fast stuff can be helpful.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And in my mind, I was thinking about people that started running later in life.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So you know how when you haven't done yoga and you're 50, 60 years old, it's a little bit harder to do than when you're 20.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_04]: How does that play over to running fast?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Because that's maybe a little bit scary for some people thinking about, okay, fast, which muscles I can barely run easy.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_04]: How does that play out?

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So the thing is fast, which muscles and speed like anything with your body and your health, you know, you have to use it or you're just going to lose it.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to get worse and worse and worse every time.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So honestly, I think one of the biggest issues with adult marathon running is people don't focus on speed and they neglect it.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you do that, you know, your wedding such a big component of your fitness and of your strength as a human being deteriorate as you age.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we all know marathoners can do great into their 30s, 40s, 50s, even older than that, primarily an endurance event.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, I think most of us probably as we get a little older to learn the importance of strength training and, you know,

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And building our strength to hold on to our youthful energy for as long as we can.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, working on your speed at any age, I think is really important.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And depending on where you're at, when you listen to this, you know, maybe your speed work is going to look very different than mine or Letty's.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But you need to, I think, think about ways to incorporate it into your training safely so that you can maintain your fast twitch muscles and develop them.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, daily strides are a great way to maintain your speed.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Marathoners should be doing strides most days of training at any age.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So strides basically at the end of your run or perhaps in the middle of your run, you want to stop.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're basically going to do maybe anywhere from two to six short, fast runs, kind of like a sprint, but controlled, maybe only 80 to 90% effort.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're going to run fast for about 100 meters or about 20 to 30 seconds.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And by doing this, you run a little, you're basically running like imagine running 80 to 90% for like 20 to 30 seconds.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a lot faster than you would ever run in a 5k.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot faster, obviously, than you'd ever run in a marathon.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You're really engaging your fast twitch muscle fibers when you do that.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And when we run fast, we run with good form.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You can really tune in to your body and how it feels to run fast and powerfully and with good form.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And just by doing those most days, you're going to get a little bit of fast twitch muscle stimulus, a little bit of neuromuscular coordination, you know, reminding your body to fire fast.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And it helps you prepare for in a racing scenario when your slow twitch muscles start to fatigue at the end of the race that you still have those fast twitch muscles to tap into to have that finishing kick and finish fast.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Someone who strides are another thing where it's simple to put into your training.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Most adults don't do them, but it's kind of like a secret weapon.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You literally do them most days.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you should do them at the end of every run unless like you're really sore, really tired.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you feel fine, you should just do two to four light strides and that's really going to help maintain your speed.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're someone who's never done this before, it's going to help develop your speed.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And people should be doing that at any age, I think.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And then you can finish your race looking like Hassan Safan too.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Developing a good finishing kick and being able to close out a race hard and run your last mile your fastest is one of the most important skills in distance running, and it feels so good.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I think anyone who's run a race, you know, run multiple races, you know the difference between

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, going out too hard and fade hang and having that last mile just be a struggle and kind of depressing.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I've been there my last five K I crossed the finish line like just on empty, like deplete like I jogged it in.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It was, you know, it's a bummer. It's real bummer.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I burnt out. And then my last mile race and my last marathon, like I was kicking hard sprinting through the finish line and that just feels so much better.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So being able to develop that skill and then to physically kick hard at the end, but then also the

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The skill of pacing yourself and you know running to your potential so that you can do that and not going out too hard.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: These are really important skills that when we work on our speed, we unlock and we get better at doing them when it matters.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I love that. All right, Chris. So let me ask you just one more question in regards to the people that are interested in doing a five K training plan after the American training plan.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_04]: What is the difference? I mean, obviously the mileage will be lower. But is there such a thing as 80 20 also with a five K or maybe you can tell us a little bit about that five K plan that is for people that want to really develop their speed.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So training for the the five K or shorter is all about putting quality of running over quantity of running.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'd be fooling you if I said for the marathon, you know anything but my miles is the most important thing for the marathon.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_03]: The more miles you can run, the better. You'll be at the marathon to a point right with the five K and shorter.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all about quality over quantity.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_03]: My Lodge is still important, but you really want to be prioritizing speed work and specific kind of endurance work for those shorter races.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's in it's done in a way that's very different from marathon training.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, your long run is not going to be the most important run of the week anymore with marathon training.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: The long runs the most important round of the week.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You're training for a five K or shorter.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The most important run of the week is your weekly speed workout.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_03]: The long runs going to be a lot shorter.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think most folks probably don't need to run more than depends on your mileage, but like 10 miles to 12 miles at most probably for training for a five K unless you're like doing really high mileage.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_03]: People running 20 to 30 miles per week.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Their long run might only be like six miles, really not that long.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: What else?

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to be doing workouts where the intensity is higher, but the duration is shorter.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So the most important marathon workouts are like long tempos, right?

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Things like three by two miles at marathon pace are a little bit faster.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: That's like an excellent marathon workout, you know, steady tempo runs at marathon pace.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe you do a 16 mile long run with 10 of those miles at marathon pace.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a great marathon workout.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But for five K, you're going to be doing things.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Tempos are still important.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But to really develop your speed, you're going to be doing things like mile pace repeats, you know, things like 400 meters at mile pace.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Things like kilometers at five K pace.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And these would have relatively short rest.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So you might only be running hard for like one, two, three, maybe four minutes, maybe five minutes.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But you're never going to be really running for like 15 minutes, 20 minutes or an hour at a strong pace like you are in your marathon training.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all about running quality with really close attention to your form and the power you're putting into the track or into the ground.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, making sure that every mile you run counts and has a clear purpose.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to be doing things like daily strides.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I know I said marathoners should be doing those.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you're training for the five K, you better be doing them.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, with any distance that you train for, I think this is a helpful thing to remember.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to get very good at running your goal race pace.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you're training for the marathon, you got to get really good at running marathon pace.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're training for the five K, you got to get really good at running five K pace.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But you also want to be like decent at running a little faster and a little slower.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you're training for the marathon, you got to be great at running marathon pace.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to be decent at running half marathon pace and you need to be decent at running slower than marathon pace.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: With the five K, you got to be really good at running five K pace.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to be decent at running mile pace.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So really fast. And then you need to be, you know, decent at running like 10 K or tempo type pace as well.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So basically the speed shifts up, the duration drops and you're really focusing on quality and not so much just getting in the miles.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I love this. And I think you've sold me on doing that after I'm done with my fall race.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And for those listeners who have also been sold on doing that, I know that you used to have training plans on your website.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_04]: So is that still the case? And how can people best find the ideal training plan for the five K or even the marathon if that's what they want to do?

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I do have training plans on my website right now.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a marathon training program, half marathon program, and then I have what I call the run your fastest mile program, which is a really great way for for someone who's never really focused on building their speed to spend some time doing that.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually only a five week program, so it's really easy to fit in between blocks of half marathon or marathon training.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And because most adults who didn't run when they were in school have never really focused on speed, almost everyone who does this program ends it after five weeks by running a new one mile PR.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Unless you've really focused on the mile before and have some really impressive mile PR, I can guarantee you you do this.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to go out and run a mile. It's going to be the fastest mile you've ever run.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's a great introduction to developing your speed. And you can check that out on my website, Night and Runs if you want.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I have a promo code I've shared on this podcast before. If you use promo code podcast, you can save 50% on that training plan if you want.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll make sure that that's active if it's not right now.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's a you know, training training for the marathon.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind that training for endurance and training for speed are opposites.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_03]: When you train for endurance for the marathon, you're prioritizing long duration, low intensity, slow twitch muscle fibers.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the complete opposite of training for speed, which is training high intensity, short duration, fast twitch muscle fibers.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's this give and take. You can't do both at the same time.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But somehow as competitive runners, we need to figure out how to do both over the course of a year and over our training because we want to improve both categories of our fitness.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So hopefully this podcast gave some insight into how to do that.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. And luckily we have you available for help.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll link all your information in the show notes and like always, Chris, thank you so much for coming on.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Letty. I always enjoy being on the show. And yeah, until next time. Bye everyone.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you guys so much for coming on. And Ryan, you hit the nail on the hammer with the nail on the head, the nail on the head with what you said with having that mix of speed and endurance.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully, given what we learned today, we'll be tackling a 5K in December and seeing how we can train for that.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I like 5Ks. I think it'll be fun. Yeah.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So with that, stay tuned for next week's podcast. Next week, we're going to talk about things that you can do during your marathon.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So not before or after, but during your marathon to stay on track, to have a great race.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're airing that shortly before Berlin, shortly before Chicago, a little bit of time before New York.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So hopefully that can be of value to you guys. If you guys have any topic suggestions, you can reach us on Instagram.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We are at Running Podcast. And with that, have a good week.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for tuning in. For more information and marathon running news, please head to www.marathonrunningpodcast.com.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll be back next week.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: With a free runner.