222. Benefit from Ultra-Running and Nik Golymbiowsky

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: In this episode, we're going to talk to an Ultra-Runner and talk about how we can implement lessons from Ultra-Running into our marathon training.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from WE GOT THE RUNS.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Join us in our running community for weekly content that is motivational, educational and inspirational.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And let the Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to the finish line and beyond.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey Runners and welcome to Episode 222. My name is Letty.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Ryan.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And Ryan, for some reason I feel like I said last week it was Episode 222.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_04]: But nothing I can do about it now.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't wait for Episode 262 which symbolizes the marathon distance 26.2.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Well you're still a ways away from there.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: 40 episodes. So let's get to it.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So Letty, you've been training for a marathon. How's that been going?

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well that's a good question Ryan. I feel like I'm cramming for this marathon, Ryan.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: As you know I didn't run that much when we were in Germany.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you approaching your training giving that you're cramming for it?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: We have less than four weeks to go and I think I'm still going to do three long runs including one tomorrow.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll see how that goes.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I know that cramming for a marathon is not for everybody and it's probably not the smartest thing to do but only you know your body.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So today's topic is like the opposite of cramming because you have to run so many miles.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know there are something marathons and ultra marathons I know have in common

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: but there's also a lot of different approaches right?

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So with an ultra marathon is obviously much longer than a regular marathon.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I think anytime you take something to an extreme it can highlight weaknesses that you can use to maybe improve on.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: For instance with the pacing you might be able to get away with running a marathon without pacing yourself that well.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Especially you because you've run so many of them and you've done them without pacing much.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But in an ultra marathon that would be more difficult because you could overwhelm yourself and then not end up finishing.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that the take home would be that you can use pacing or be more strict about certain things.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It might help improve your marathon times and that could happen with any of your topics that you're going to go over.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and the topics that I do want to go over is exactly that pacing as one of them.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So what can you learn from ultra runners that you can incorporate into your marathon training?

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I did some research and I came across some information that might be helpful.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously that's with big asterisks. There's a lot that goes into ultra training just like with marathon training.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But to just condense it for the purpose of this quick conversation we were having pre-interview.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I found four takeaways for marathoners when it comes to these ultras.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And they are pacing control, fueling flexibility, mental toughness and endurance from time on your feet.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And just to hop into that very briefly, we can learn from ultra runners how to conserve energy

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_04]: because they can't approach a race the way we approach a race.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_04]: They don't go to a 5K and start running all out because if they do that they risk not finishing their race.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Adopting a similar approach in marathons would help us avoid burning out too early.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So we could learn a lot from ultra marathoners when it comes to pacing.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Another little something we can learn from ultra runners is fueling flexibilities because in ultras

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: runners don't only fuel with gels, they also fuel with real food.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And so they learn with that to be adaptable with nutrition.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that could help us marathon runners too because during marathon we just eat gels.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But if we could be a little bit more flexible, maybe we could learn how to maintain a more

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: consistent energy level.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think although gels probably work fine for marathon it might be worthwhile to experiment with other things too.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And in general real food provides some of the best nutrition.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And another thing that we could learn from ultra runners is a lesson on mental toughness

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: because they have to master the mental resilience because at times they're facing hours of discomfort

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: running in the dark, running through the woods and running where really nobody can pick them up.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: It's almost unrelatable because I know I've had marathons where I was just kind of over it

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and I wanted to finish and I thought okay if I were to quit now I would still have to go back to

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: this starting line or finish line to grab my bag and everything and it would have been

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04]: something that's plausible.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: You can just call an Uber when you're doing an ultra you're in the middle of the woods

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: so that's something that's just not possible.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody's going to have to transport you out and for marathons it's almost easier to just keep trotting

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: but for ultras you have to kind of change your mindset to go through those last tough miles.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And for that reason the takeaway for marathoners, if you finish an ultra you can be like

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: wow I've done 100 miles what's 26.2?

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I think in general the mental game of distance running is probably under emphasized

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03]: in training or at least in the past maybe it's become more important or significant

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of training programs nowadays but it's definitely a good point.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think mentally if you decide to do an ultra marathon it surely would give you confidence

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: to be able to tackle the next marathon because you think oh it's just that much shorter.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly and I think that also comes with running a lot of marathons the more marathons you run

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_04]: you know that the distance is something that almost comes from muscle memory.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_04]: When it comes to your finishing time though that's a whole different story.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So Ryan in the last point or takeaway that I have for runners what we can learn from

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: ultra runners is that ultra running emphasizes on long and steady runs back to back

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: and having long days.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like we already know that for marathons the more time you spend on your feet that's

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04]: going to help you.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So adopting a little bit of this strategy to your marathons and just putting more time

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_04]: on your feet can definitely help you build stamina and help you finish stronger.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes it's true.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So Ledi who do you have the pleasure of interviewing today?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so today's interview is going to be with Nick Galin Bioski whom I met when

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I did one of my shakeout runs in Miami he was traveling in from Canada.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He's an ultra runner he doesn't run with a garment very interesting person and we

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: chatted a lot about how he pursued that distance and how he kind of fell into all

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_04]: of this and became a running coach for marathons and ultra runners.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Sounds interesting I want to know what he has to say do you want to get into

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: it?

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure so without any further ado I'm now going to play our conversation with Nick.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Alright so I'm on here with Nick Galin Bioski.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Nick thank you so much for coming on.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, thank you for having me.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Alright so let's do a little backstory.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: You and I met in Miami during a community run during the Nike Pace Run.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You are an ultra runner.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's hop into your story a little bit how did you start running and how did

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_04]: you find yourself with the ultra distance?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes yes awesome.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I am an ultra runner and for those people who aren't aware of what that is

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: it's doing distances of anything longer than a marathon.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been a lifelong athlete playing football wrestling rugby and I found myself

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: getting into distance running around 2020 and I really really wanted to find

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: a race the only race I was able to find that wasn't virtual at the time

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because of all the restrictions was an 80k trail race so a 50 miler.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't really what I was looking for but it was the only race that I saw

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that was you know I was able to go there put a beer bar and have a race experience.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It was that one so my first race a year into running was a 50 miler

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and since then I've just been so hooked.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's backtrack a little bit.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So when did you actually start running and then prior to running this ultra distance

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: what were the distances that you did?

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I got into running 2020 my first month of like ever like running for the sake of running

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: like not not as in just like running a lap around the field because I did something wrong

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: during a football play but like going for a run because I want to go for a run

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: which was a foreign concept to me was in 2020 and then in one month

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a half marathon and then after that I was just like I had zero structure

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what I was doing right what I was doing wrong

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was just running whenever I felt like running

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and I would say probably like eight months after my first run I did the 50 miler.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow so that's I mean obviously you know there is a lot of room for injury

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and all that so maybe tell us how because I know you're a coach now tell us how at that time

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_04]: you made sure that you stayed injury for your maybe you did get injured.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't there were no serious injuries maybe I had like a little lingering pain

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in the Achilles here and there but nothing serious.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I really just think because I wasn't doing any injury preventative measures like I do now

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like now I'm really beginning to stretching foam rolling getting a fascia stretch therapy

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: done to me massage therapy osteopath back then I was really just doing everything by feel

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: making sure I'm not running through too much pain whenever I would get home

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I would do like a little routine like just being in a deep squat and keeping my legs up

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: like elevated on the couch which really isn't anything but I think it was just because of all the years

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I had either in the gym or in other sports it started me off with a really good base to prevent injuries.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And was strength training something that you continued on while you were running

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_04]: or was that something that you dropped because a lot of times that's what happens.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah once I found running I was like oh this is enjoyable and time in the gym is pretty boring

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so I really stopped going to the gym almost almost entirely.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow well good thing you did not get injured but all right so the reason that you found the 50

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_04]: miler was because you didn't have the what did you say 50K 50 miler 50 miler 50 miler

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: was that there was no other races but besides that I mean it's that's pretty lengthy that's two

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_04]: marathons you've never done a marathon before that you done a half marathon and I can see

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_04]: you know they say everything in moderation for a reason because for some of us that's just too much

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_04]: it gets boring tell us about your training up to that and then the marathon and you know what

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: headspace you were in. Yeah so for context the 50 miler was called the Quebec mega trail so

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: not only is it a 50 miler it's very mountainous 50 miler where you summit two of Quebec's

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: largest ski mountains Mont Seynon and Mont Massif. So getting into the training I realized that my

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: first month and two months I was only running on road so I had to learn how to run on the trails

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: which is honestly somewhere I feel more comfortable and more attracted to trail running felt felt

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: very exciting to me and the training had zero structure I just ran when I felt like running

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd get anxious and be like oh I need to do a long run so I'd go out and run like 30 or 40K

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and I did that maybe once or twice a week and every other day I'd just run

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: 10-15K something that I think is a terrible plan to do now if I had to redo it I would not

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: train this way but yeah it was really just winging it the whole way I was just winging at the start

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04]: wow and while you were winging it you I mean I guess there's something to be said by running

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: by how you feel listening to your bodies why do you say it's such a bad method and

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_04]: what is a proper method for training for a 50 miler as most of us you know you know we're

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_04]: marathoners half marathoners we don't really know how to approach this yeah yeah so my new

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: way of training and the way that I train my athletes kind of comes from my last race that I did

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and I changed up the way that I see training so I just did a 500 kilometer run 300 miles

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: from LA to Vegas so I had to switch up my training style and doing this injury free

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and getting a time that like I hit my goal really started to make me think differently

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: so I never give any workouts where I'm telling people do a certain pace for a certain distance

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: never I'm never saying do a six minute pace for 10k I'm always telling people to do

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: a certain amount of effort for a certain amount of time so do 60 to 70 percent of your max

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: heart rate for two hours doing this style of training like switching the variables around

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: where you're focusing on effort and time I believe to be much more calculable for what

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you're doing to your body during this training plan and it takes a lot of stress off personally

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I stopped running with a watch completely I just know what time I start and what time I finish

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and because I'm doing like multiple runs a day I find most of my miles through run commuting

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: so just if I need to go to work I run to work if I need to go to lunch I run to the lunch

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and then run back home this is where I'm logging most of my miles and it's just a healthier way for me

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to not be obsessed with the stats as I'm training for races like even larger than the 500

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_04]: so I have so much to say to that for that one well first off what about 10 years from now

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_04]: right I mean we all say as a joke if it's not on Strava it doesn't count but seriously though

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_04]: if you're older when you're older and you want to look back at what you did as a young man

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_04]: don't you think you're going to miss that data like why is it not possible for you to just have

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_04]: a watch and just upload it but never really looking at Strava also you know for mile tracking

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_04]: purposes and then my other question with you saying you run commute I love that but how in

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_04]: the world do you do that I can't run to lunch and then run after lunch it's like the worst

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling in the world yeah the stats don't mean much to me like all these runs that I'm doing

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they're more of a journey so in 10 years from now I'm just going to know that I ran a lot every day

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't to me it doesn't matter to look at oh this run I did 10 seconds faster than my usual pace

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: honestly I think it would be bad for me I think if I were logging all of my miles I'd get a

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and I would just end up exerting too hard and in terms of running to lunch and running back like

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that's just it's what I love like I don't want to hop in a car I don't want to order an Uber

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like I would really enjoy to run there and run back okay and all that is possible with the

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Canadian weather up there it gets pretty hectic sometimes I am no stranger to running through

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: snowstorms today is it's pretty hot so we're lucky but yeah it makes you an even better

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: runner when you have all this variable weather and all these crazy crazy changes in the weather

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: it definitely makes you comfortable in any race day scenario I love it you're a very positive

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: mindset so with that maybe share with your listeners you know we always talk about

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: finding your why what is your reason they say it's like a three or five-fold question when

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_04]: you keep asking yourself why have you ever done that and why is it that you run yeah so for the

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: first 50 miler that I was talking about before I know the answer to that I dropped everything in

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: my life to pursue a world where where my life is revolved around running where my careers were

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: all around running where my day-to-day life is revolved around running I started a running

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: coaching business I redowned all my social medias where I took a huge break from social

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: media to start a running account and I was telling myself like okay this is the first stepping stone

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: no matter how much this hurts we need to get this done to chase this dream life

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and every race and every journey since then 100 k's 100 milers the 300 miler it's always been

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: something related to that where I'm chasing this dream life and running and completing these

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_04]: challenges are the pedestal I love it I love it that's a lot deeper than you know I mean

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess everybody has their own reason but I like that you what would trigger that what made

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you want to change your lifestyle yeah so I used to be in real estate and at the same time I was

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: working in bars and clubs and going out and I realized I was living a very unhealthy lifestyle

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: or I wasn't doing the sports that I used to I felt not good in my own body and then when COVID

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: hit and all those things got taken away I wasn't able to go work in a bar I wasn't able to go out

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I found myself in in I guess what you can call a depression and I just remember

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: hating getting out of bed every morning to go to class or or to try to find a new internship

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and I absolutely hated the idea of what I was doing and the only thing in my entire life giving me

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: a putting a smile on my face was running so I remember the exact day it was like February 17th

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the shower I just finished like having a huge breakdown crying because I didn't know where

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: my life was gonna head was gonna take and I was like if I hate everything I'm doing in my day-to-day

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: life I'm just gonna hate my life and it was right then and there that I decided I need a restart

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and since running is the only thing making me smile right now let's start off with running

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you switched your career from real estate to run coaching that always

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of came together you were trying to find something that's running related

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: exactly that's cool that's that's awesome so all right so then you started running never

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: look back right and then you started your run coaching business maybe talk to us a little bit

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: about that yeah um so the starting of it was slow and steady but now I offer run coaching for I would

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: say in an intermediate runner all focusing on achieving a new personal record injury free

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're looking for someone to help you boston qualify i'm probably not the best guy for you

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're looking to run your first 50k and keep that as a lifestyle that's something I really love

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: helping people out with uh integrating running as your lifestyle a lot of people come to me

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like I feel like I plateaued I feel like I can't do the amount of miles I want to

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: do without getting injured I just want to be able to run a half marathon on a weekend and not even

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: think about it I just want to be able to run 10k here and there and and it's not a big deal

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: anymore so so doing like that doing doing things on that level is something that brings a lot of

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: happiness to me and I coach people mainly online and some in-person work where I'm also a registered

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: massage therapist now so it's awesome to be able to train the person and then also help them recover

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: by like understanding what's happening inside their muscles determining what part of their

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: body is tight what's taking too much impact what's compensating too much what's not working

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: hard enough all inside of their body and that's a little glimpse of my coaching I like it um just

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: to follow up though you mentioned that if somebody wants to try to train for Boston then you wouldn't

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: be the coach for them why is that is that because of the pace or the distance mostly the pace when

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it comes to doing something like Boston it's very much trained like loading training peaking

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: performing at your highest fitness level and then are facing a very big decline

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I can give you some good advice but I'm it's just that's not really what sparks my interest

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: doing the very fast marathons like I've never ran a Boston qualifier marathon so

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like a couple of my athletes have but it's just not the world of running that I'm really

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: intrigued by and and and passionate about gotcha gotcha great so all right so then since we're

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_04]: talking about ultras let's talk a little bit more about ultra so ultras are all about testing your

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: own personal mental and physical limitations what's your favorite part about pushing yourself

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: further than you thought you could every ultra is a roller coaster so it's hard to think of one

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: favorite part but it's just knowing that you're going on a ride there's gonna be ups there's

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna be downs the downs are gonna hurt like hell they're gonna they're gonna hurt so bad

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and the ups are gonna feel like you're invincible so you just put your toes on the start line and

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_04]: like buckle up for the journey all right let's hop into some of those lows for us that can't

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_04]: relate because obviously I mean it's very easy to gnf a road race because it's not your day

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_04]: you're as you said you're going for a time and it's just not there it's an easy transport back to

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: the starting line whereas ultras are you guys are in the mountains and you're running at night

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: time and all that stuff and then obviously a dnf has a completely different meaning because you're

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_04]: not going for pace already you're going for the distance and you know you're gonna hit those

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_04]: lows so maybe tell us a little bit about those lows and maybe some personal experiences with them

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: mm-hmm something that happens to me quite often which you'd be pretty surprised about is

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have like a 30 minute injury which is so weird like especially near the beginning of the

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: race I think it's like my mind trying to play tricks on me my nerves getting a bit too big

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'll literally like have what feels like a strained Achilles or a sprained ankle

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: for the first like 30 minutes of a race and then once I'm able to calm myself down

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and get into a space where I'm like okay I know how to run I know what I'm doing I know this injury

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: isn't real I just put in a 15 week training block where my ankle didn't hurt at all so it makes no

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: sense for my ankle to start hurting now the pain vanishes and I don't feel it for the rest of

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the entire race and that happens almost every time which is really interesting it's called phantom

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: pains or phantom injuries so I don't really know the science behind that but I've definitely experienced

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it and then getting into the lows they can get really really bad so what's common in all my

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: lows is you start moving slower all the pain starts to become at the front of your mind it

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: hurts maybe it's your knees maybe it's your quads maybe your breathing is just not working

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the way you want it to work but if you just keep fighting through it making sure that you're still

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: having enough calories drinking enough water and just pushing forward maybe taking a 10 and 15 minute

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: dirt nap you know you're gonna come out of the low 30 minute dirt nap I love it

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[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: so all right so when you are experiencing those are you able to basically detach your mind from

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_04]: your body and look at yourself logistically and be like it's okay Nick just eat something

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_04]: or I mean how do you get out of that mindset that it's in the forefront front so much

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it could be very difficult at times and having an amazing crew and other runners around

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you to make you realize that this pain is not permanent and that you know what you're feeling

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: is a low what you're gonna feel for the rest of the race and it's possible to come out of

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: mixed a lot of times you're feeling this low and you think you're gonna feel this pain

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for the rest of the race and it's hard to stay in this mindset that I'm in right now be like oh

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah low is in high is in high like when you're in that low you hate everything you hate running

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you're like why the hell did I sign up for a hundred miler and I'm only 30 miles deep

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and I still have so much to go um so it's just like realizing that that it is a mindset

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: realizing that it's just a temporary low and people are really gonna help you get out of that

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah I mean I can only imagine it has to be a completely different way to mentally prepare

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04]: yourself for a three four five hour race a marathon on the road where literally everything is an access

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_04]: right there there's medical people literally right everywhere or an ultra so how do you mentally

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_04]: prepare yourself is there something that you do with your athletes that you tell them to do

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: like you know you do something hard every day or how do you get you to get yourself prepared for this

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: whenever I am four to five days away from an ultra marathon I will switch my mindset into

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: convincing myself that I am a warrior prepared to enter into a battlefield and I am going to

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: experience the war I've ever felt in my entire life my legs are going to feel broken four times over

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and really convincing myself like okay this race is a battle I am excited to go to battle I'm excited

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to feel the pain these are all things that um I convince myself to do uh not even I need to

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: convince myself but just naturally this is what's happening like I know it's gonna hurt and I get

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: excited for the hurt and then the night before the ultra marathon I'll usually have a couple

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: beers and some nachos to like relax and then I wake up usually around like two three a.m. because

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: races always start really early and I'm off you know that's that's really interesting that's

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if we could translate that into shorter race distances too just to have a tougher mind

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I've never heard anyone say that but it makes complete sense I mean I guess when ultra really

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_04]: are going to battle against yourself and your own mind so how close I mean have you ever DNF'd for

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_04]: a reason that was non-physical injury related just mentally and if not then how close were you

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_04]: to just DNF'd because you're just done with running I haven't DNF'd any of my races yet

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it'll probably happen one day uh so I can't speak too much about that I've had really good

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: race days uh basically my whole running career so far but I have two races I have 100k in two weeks

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and 100 miler in four weeks so maybe one of those days all one of those races all all run on a day

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: that's not my day I really hope you don't and you know the whole it's not my day thing I think

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: it's easy to say that for a marathon because you can just lay off the pace and finish it anyway

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_04]: but with a race like 100 miler you can't be 90 miles in and feel crappy and say it's not my day

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're so close once you're 90 miles in you're you've got a death march unless you get

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: cut off by like the time cut off um or if you're having some serious gi issues where

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you're like pooping your pants you're just throwing up all over the trail if you're 90

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: miles in you're walking it in or crawling it in if you have to yeah yeah yeah no that

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_04]: makes sense and you know I think it's kind of like people are split on the whole hitting the

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_04]: wall thing right to me during a marathon when I see mile 20 I'm not hanging it wall I'm like oh wow

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_04]: it's only six miles only six miles this is like less than a daily run for me I can totally do this

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_04]: whereas other people maybe they push harder but they're on the struggle train with that whole

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: wall thing and then you know your pace goes down whereas I feel like you should be logically

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_04]: getting more inspired because you're really close and you've already done 20 miles so I think that's

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's I think it's a lot of it a mindset thing of course yeah 99 there's a quote it goes the

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: 90 percent of running is mental and the rest is in your head that makes sense no that

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_04]: meant that makes a lot of sense yeah so okay so let's hop into one of the races that I've

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_04]: heard of before and I actually knew one of the founders original founders back then it's called

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04]: the speed project it's a race that goes from Los Angeles to Las Vegas as you said it's about 300

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_04]: miles and usually people do it in a relay so maybe tell us about your experience with this race

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so two years ago I did do it in the traditional format as a relay where everyone

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: is sprinting doing a mile two mile legs tapping your teammate and then you do that

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for two days straight until you reach until you reach Vegas and after doing that I felt like it

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: wasn't enough I still had a craving to race in the desert and my soul so sometimes during the relay

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: races there are times where you need to do longer than one to two mile legs so my longest leg was

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like 15 miles and that was my absolute favorite part where I was able to do a really long part

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: on my own it happened to be at night and this is where I felt my happiest my truest to myself and

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it was the part that drew me back so I got invited and accepted to do the solo race and like without

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: hesitation I applied uh and and like registered signed up and it was by far like the biggest

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: um feet I would take on before the 300 miler my my max distance was maybe just over 100 miles like

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 miles plus run commuting that day so it was very very exciting and that whole race was was

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it took me five days and six hours it was a massive journey um I don't even know where to

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_04]: begin about that yeah well I'll ask you some questions so how does that even work logistically

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_04]: did you have a team with you and who is your team yeah so I did have a team with me usually people

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: will have an rv plus a support vehicle and have around like six people helping um that was not

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: my scenario I had one Jeep Wrangler with three of my closest friends we packed it to the rim

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: leaving some essential materials behind just because we couldn't fit it in the car

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we had a tent uh on the roof of the Jeep which is where I would take my naps and where the crew

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: would take their naps and for the most part they would follow me or we would leap frog where

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I would run for six miles and then they would drive six miles ahead and I'd meet them and

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: then we'd keep doing that every day and that's how it worked for for most of the time

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: all right so I'm not even gonna ask about the lack of showers and everything um no showering

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_04]: your crew members nobody else wanted to run or did they maybe run a little bit with you

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah um the first two days my crew didn't run because there were other racers next to me and

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to run to the other people and then day three four and five I always had a pacer with

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: me because that's when I started to become a bit more delusional and could have taken a

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: wrong turn it might have been dangerous for me to run alone at night you're we're passing through

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: some pretty sketchy neighborhoods so it's always safer to be with with another person just just in

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: case and yeah yeah no showers wow so okay so let's talk about the well let's finish up with this

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_04]: race first so how many other people finished solo and how did you do we were 25 at the start line

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: there were only four dns which is pretty good uh and all four I believe was was because of

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because of Akili's issues um and I finished 13th wow congratulations that's that's pretty awesome

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you so much are you gonna hop into that one again um I don't have any

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: interest in redoing that exact same route a bit faster like it's such a big journey I'd rather

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: dedicate like doing something to that level like in a different location um so I don't know

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: if I would do it again a lot of people do do it if I if I were to do it again I'll probably do

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it without a crew and try to do it unsupported what's a backpack or like yeah yeah a really big

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: backpack and maybe some like drop like set up drop bags in the desert oh wow okay what about the safety

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_04]: what about it okay all right so let's talk about that safety issue um as you alluded to you know

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_04]: sometimes especially for ultra nighttime it's not just people it's also animals what are your

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_04]: tips that you give your people that you coach in regards to safety um how to stay safe out there

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_04]: you know not just nighttime people animals but also mountains and injuries there's so much that

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_04]: doesn't happen during marathons that could potentially happen during ultras

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: for the majority of it if you're doing an organized race like you sign up for 100

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: miler and they have volunteers they have a start line they give you a bib

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have much to worry about there there's really not too much bad that can happen

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: uh the community is so helpful that let's say you get injured on the trail

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: like you twist your ankle you break your ankle you can't walk I guarantee another runner is going to

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: come and and and and help you get to the next aid station so then at the aid station they can

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: they can ATV you off obviously every Garmin has has s os features your iphone has s os features

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the Garmin in reach is like a satellite communicator so you don't have self service

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you're able to send satellite messages to your crew to the race organizer just to anyone to be

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like this is where these are my coordinates I cannot I'm injured I need help um worst case

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you get a helicopter to come in and save you if you're in a really bad situation

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but for the most part all the races uh around the volunteers are very helpful the

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: race organizers are um like really on top of their stuff so you don't need to be worried about

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: being safe during a race like it's all taken care of so much as road runners didn't know I didn't

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: know there was a Garmin that connects the satellite so that's that's pretty awesome all

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_04]: right so I guess my last question would be um self-discovery personal breakthroughs

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_04]: what is your summary on everything that has happened to you in the last four years what

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_04]: did you learn for ultra running and why do you recommend ultra running for runners

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that is an extremely loaded question I still feel like I'm a massive rookie or at the start of my

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: journey and even though I've ran like 300 miles I don't think that's anywhere close to what I'm

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: capable of and what I'm going to do so for me personally it's just been such a good vehicle

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: to use to to bring me through different stages of life and and understand myself better um because

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: ultra running is a time and a place where you need to be brutally honest with yourself if you're

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling like shit it's hard to convince yourself that you're not and going through these highs

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and these lows and putting yourself in very vulnerable situations like your your butt cheeks

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: chafing like crazy or you're throwing up all your food and you just take in a lot of like really good

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: life practical stuff like being able to trust your crew being dependent on people like learning how

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to trust um learning how to trust yourself and and become dependent on yourself uh there's

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: just so much that doing these extremely hard feats will teach you along the way and for

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: me personally it's just it's just the start I love it I love it it sounds like a marathon journey

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: on steroids so it's awesome thank you nick and if people want to reach out to you find you etc

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: how can they best do that instagram and youtube run nick 100 k m r u n n i k 100 k m perfect

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and we'll link that in our show notes thank you so much thank you so much for having me

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_04]: thank you nick for coming on and speaking with me it was a pleasure and I wish you good luck in

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_04]: your journey and if anyone is interested in coaching with nick or following him on instagram

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04]: i'm going to link everything in our show notes hopefully you guys have found some

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_03]: use out of the information or you've gotten some motivation to try new things

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and you can incorporate into your training that's right and I will do that too for my

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: next marathon in three and a half weeks so all right so thank you everybody for listening to our

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_04]: podcast we really appreciate it and until next week have a good week of running

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_04]: thanks for tuning in for more information and marathon running news please head to

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_04]: www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week

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