213. Running during off-season

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[00:00:55] Make it a hot grill summer at Whole Foods Market You're listening to episode 213 of the Marathon Running Podcast In this episode, you're gonna hear about off-season training from Coach David Levine This is the Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from WE GOT THE RUNS

[00:01:19] Join us in our running community for weekly content that is motivational, educational and inspirational and let the Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to the finish line and beyond Hey runners, welcome to episode 213. My name is Letty My name is Ryan

[00:01:40] And we are your hosts of this weekly podcast Welcome back if you're a long-time listener and hello if you're new we do this weekly podcast every week on all things running You know the spell. Well, you don't know the spell because you're new but here it is

[00:01:55] Race recaps and expert nutritionists, expert coaches, etc. And also on YouTube check us out there for a different type of entertainment And while we have expert interviews here on our podcast, our YouTube channel is more aimed for this type of entertainment

[00:02:11] We have vlogs happening, race recaps but you know the full weekend It's just more of a visual aspect So if you want more, go check out the YouTube channel Yes, that's right And so today, what are we talking about?

[00:02:25] Yeah, today's expert is coach David Levine. He's the head coach of the LA Roadrunner So he basically writes the training plan for every single member I think they have about a thousand at this point

[00:02:35] And their training program for the LA Marathon starts in September and the marathon is in March So I asked him about what runners should do during off-season So if you're only doing one marathon and only I'm giving air quotes because one marathon is a great accomplishment

[00:02:52] But if you're just doing one marathon a year, how should you train the rest of the year? What is smart to do and how do you set yourself up for the best success with your marathon? It doesn't have to be LA

[00:03:05] Super interesting and some great tips that we got from him So you want to get into it then? Yeah, so without any further ado, we're now going to play our conversation with head coach David Levine

[00:03:17] All right, so I am back on with David Levine, head coach of the LA Roadrunners David, thank you so much for coming back to speak with me Oh thanks for having me

[00:03:26] Of course, yeah, I'm always super happy when you schedule is super busy and you have time to come on So with that today our topic is going to be off-season running So we're basically going to touch on base training and off-season running

[00:03:43] What you do between marathons and to give people a little bit of a background You are the head coach of the LA Roadrunners like I said And your training program starts about mid-September And the LA marathon is in March of every year

[00:03:57] And then there's that phase in between So I'm going to start with the first question What do you tell your runners? The ones that have decided, okay, I am hooked I'm going to do one marathon a year And I'm going to redo your program again in mid-September

[00:04:13] What do you tell them to do? How to better themselves, etc. In that time between March and your training program starting again in mid-September Let's hope all your listeners are doing some kind of exercise They benefit from three hours of exercise every week or more

[00:04:35] And you can actually live significantly longer There was a study by Harvard School of Health last year, 2023 That indicated those people who worked out three hours a week Any kind of exercise doesn't have to be running There are benefits to running, there are benefits to strength training

[00:04:55] Which we'll talk about But any kind of exercise, you live longer You have far less risk of severe illness like cancers All sorts of things So the volume of training that we do in marathon training

[00:05:12] Like starting three hours a week to seven hours a week or even a little more You're going to live longer, just from doing that Now here's the deal When we exercise, and this is how it goes in the off-season The exercise, whether you're doing strength training

[00:05:31] You're breaking up muscle fibers And you come back stronger because you grow more muscle fibers To compensate for the strain that you're putting upon yourself by lifting that weight Well it's the same thing with running When you run, you break down things

[00:05:50] You eat muscles and you tax your heart And you while running You do all these things that essentially break down your body a little bit But then you come back stronger You get an enlarged lower left ventricle

[00:06:07] Which enables you to send more blood through your entire body more efficiently And a long, long, long, long list of things I just mentioned That's one of the benefits of your heart So one of the things that I just heard about That science really didn't even know

[00:06:26] Is that when you exercise You actually get more stem cells So basically, when you're getting older Your cells get old and they become maybe cancerous Maybe they become just worn out Whatever you can have liver issues All your vital organs, your pancreas, your kidneys All can get older

[00:06:56] But stem cells are now going to replace those old cells And you get that from exercise Doing anything, right? And that basically stem cells are going to make you younger So you actually get younger from exercise Any exercise So here's the thing

[00:07:19] Do you have to run? Is that the only exercise you can do? Well, no, because in the on season You do more and more and more and more And you're breaking your body down And so it's great I always say take two weeks off Right after the marathon

[00:07:37] Two weeks to do no running whatsoever Now that doesn't mean you can't do strength training And swimming and easy biking You may want to avoid biking on hills But even your bike in the gym, the stationary bike On a low level setting

[00:07:54] Great workout for the two weeks post marathon It can take three to four weeks to 100% heal All those little tiny micro tears in the filaments That make up your muscles Your muscles kind of look like the smallest level of your muscle

[00:08:12] Kind of looks like six fingers on either side Coming, expanding and contracting That's what the sarcomere Which is the smallest element of your muscle looks like And you break these little filaments That are only single strands of beads Of molecules of protein per strand

[00:08:30] You break them, they knot up That's why you use a foam roller to straighten them out Or while you eat protein These are all protein, 100% protein These filaments and that's why you need protein After you work that That's what you're rebuilding

[00:08:46] It takes three to four weeks to fully rebuild them So okay, two weeks off of running Pretty much you're going to build most of them But then also you need time off to relax Your central nervous system So if the idea is

[00:09:05] Is that as you build up more and more and more In the on season You're going to break down more and more and more muscle And essentially you might You're kind of breaking down your body Which essentially like I just said Is a really good thing to do

[00:09:19] For periods of time In the off season You can rebuild strength So you have greater strength So you can do more volume You can do more speed With greater strength So you're not going to get injured Essentially strength training is not Necessarily going to get you faster

[00:09:41] But if you can do more volume And do more speed without getting injured Then you're going to get faster Does that make sense? So the strength training is going to keep you from getting injured And not being able to do more Without injury will get you faster

[00:09:59] It's the volume that gets you faster of everything You can build more strength in the off season And maintain a little bit of a base You don't want to stop running the whole season You can do 5, 10, 20 miles Depending on what your ability level is On season

[00:10:17] You can do a fraction of your peak In the off season Maintain a little bit of a base Mostly aerobic, easy stuff And you're going to be exercising But do more strength training You can use your body weight at home You don't need to have a gym membership

[00:10:34] Gym is great too Have a set of weights at home That works, you know All good stuff Alright, so basically the number one thing Is what you're coaching your people Is to realize that there's amazing benefits And then you've talked about taking about A month or so off

[00:10:56] Two weeks for sure, no running And then some other healing time For your central nervous system To realize and recuperate and everything Yeah, and then after that you've mentioned That we're going to hop into base training So for somebody who has done 50 miles at peep weeks, maybe 60 miles

[00:11:17] What does this proper base training look like And where do they get such plan How do they know what the mileage would look like The long runs, the cross training, strength training How do they know what combination is good for them Well, you know, alright

[00:11:32] Let's take your example If you're up to 60 miles a week And you're going to do a fraction of that Here would be, maybe we can plot out A good week for 60 miles Which is a lot, you know Most runners doing marathons are really 40, 45, you know

[00:11:49] 60 is a good volume That's going to make you faster If you can do that You know, there are a lot of people That can't do 60 miles in a week There are obviously people who can do 140 They're called pro athletes But that's a whole different story

[00:12:08] So, a 60 mile or You know, if you did 15, 20 miles a week Something like that 30, max That'd be a great week of running If you were in the gym Like three days a week Where normally you probably wouldn't have time to do that If you were stretching

[00:12:28] Right after your In the gym, you're tightening your muscles You know So you want to stretch them out gently You know, stretch them out Especially where you're tight If you have a muscle area Like your hamstrings, your quads, your calves Any one of those

[00:12:48] Do the stretch for that muscle group Like three minutes More permanently elongates the muscle rather The 30 second thing makes you feel good Doesn't really permanently elongate the muscle Get on the ground Get all the weight off your body And stretch it out So three days a week

[00:13:08] Strength training 15 to 30 miles a week For a 60 miler Like you For running Mostly, you don't need to do a lot of speed work You could do like one speed session a week Where for a 60 miler You might be doing two or maybe even a little more than two

[00:13:30] Speed sessions a week For 60 miles So, yeah, maybe one speed short speed session a week Keep in mind this You maintain You lose speed very easily You maintain a roving low heart rate What we call endurance You maintain the ability to go farther You maintain that better

[00:13:58] So in other words, if you were to take a week off training Because you were sick You probably wouldn't lose any real endurance When you came back You would lose speed But speed comes back pretty quickly So, pardon me You don't need to do like 80-20

[00:14:15] You don't need to do that full 20% In the off season It's okay to lose a little speed You'll get it back pretty quickly You can do a little speed Like I said, one workout a week And a track or whatever

[00:14:29] Maybe you can even recruit some faster muscle fibers From doing strength training You can do more pounding So you can go maybe You can push yourself a little faster Without injury Because now you're stronger In the off season You can recruit more faster muscle fiber

[00:14:49] Fast twitch muscle fiber Whatever Those are Fast twitch is defined by thicker muscle fibers People have thicker legs Generally have more fast twitch You'll note just to the sideline I find this interesting You'll note that Jamaicans Who are not distance runners Have thicker legs Than the canyons

[00:15:14] Who are distance runners Have toothpicks for legs But they're the distance runners They have thicker legs I always found that interesting And it's true That's why it's a genetic thing But that said Yeah You don't need as much speed work In the off season

[00:15:38] Unless you're doing like 5K, 10K And then it's a whole different story But don't do too many races Every year You can only do really like 3 maybe 4 marathons a year And hope to reach peak levels of performance You need time off

[00:15:58] And then you need to start building a little bit more I know people go from marathon to marathon to marathon And yes, you can get stronger But you're not going to really get faster I know that sounds strange My wife who did 52 marathons Got way stronger

[00:16:17] The marathons became easy I know I shouldn't say this But they did But she got way slower She developed more slow twitch muscle fiber To take her from endurance But she really wasn't able to do much speed work Host the ultimate backyard barbecue With Whole Foods Market

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[00:19:44] For 20% off Alright so With that So you're recommending One speed work Maybe a week And then pretty much half your mileage In three days a week. And with that Sorry David, I lost my question Oh one more thing while you're thinking about it Is sleep More

[00:20:08] I know people do not sleep enough We endurance athletes studies show Benefit from 8 to 9 hours Of sleep a night Year round But if you're not able to get the sleep during the training season Because you're out training I get it, sleep is a huge Benefit

[00:20:28] You get all sorts of hormone replacement From sleep Because of that you get more Cellular reproduction From sleep, meaning you're Producing your muscle Tissue during sleep Because of sleep Really important thing I am constantly reminded The gold medalist In triathlon From the United States Ever to win gold

[00:20:56] In the Olympics For triathlon It was a woman in Rio Olympics Named Gwen Jorgensen And she said The thing that put her over the top To win the Olympic Gold medal was 9 hours of sleep A night, every night That was her key to success

[00:21:18] Now this woman also put in huge Volumes Of training, I mean huge I just Heard the other day a lecture From Oh god what's her name Who just won Kona Triathlon The Ironman Lucy something Lucy Charles Barkley She puts in 40 hours Of training a week 4D

[00:21:46] That's a lot of training That's what pro athletes do They're not sending that for anybody But You know But the sleep thing Is such so important as well Yeah, yeah, no absolutely I agree and I'm glad That you reminded us of that

[00:22:06] Now when it comes to base training again Let's talk about the runners That want to do the same marathon Next year the LA Marathon with you But they want to probably Make it happen a little bit faster For their base training What are the recommendations

[00:22:22] Compared to somebody who is just A novice runner who is just Aiming to finishing a race Great question and the answer Is very simple it's basically What gets them faster Is the same thing that will Get them faster to set up For the season

[00:22:42] Set themselves up for the next season Is the same thing that Sets them up to get faster For the race and very simply It's more of everything So if they're doing A lot of base training And a lot of strength training It would be more strength training

[00:23:00] And more base training In the off season Basically that's going to set them up To start the next season They're now strong They're now rested They haven't stressed their Over the system too much So they're stress is stress Physical stress emotional stress is stress You need to sleep

[00:23:22] You need to rest you need to recover From stress right And there are way Many there are huge Benefits from exercise we already talked About that but one minor Setback is you do Stress your body so you need To recover from that you need to rest

[00:23:40] Now if you set Your body up so you're a little stronger And have a little more of a base In the off season So you can start your next season A little higher volume And then take that To even higher volume by the end

[00:23:56] Of the season with each season You can go up in ability A little more you taper down You go up a little higher you taper Down you go up a little higher And you get this zigzag from season The season that takes you faster And faster and faster

[00:24:12] And that's how you do it It's just a little more In the off season Than what you might have done Season previous and then a little More in the on season That what you've done in the season previous Just more and more And more

[00:24:30] Because you're training your body To do more and more and more and more As long as you're tapering and resting And all that in the off season It's usually only do like two Marathons a year one every six Months so they really give themselves

[00:24:44] Ability to taper down take a break And then rebuild again You know you don't see like the guys Who win major marathons Like Boston Chicago New York Whatever Berlin Big one London You don't see them doing more Than really like two a year So yeah

[00:25:04] So when you are Trying to do that And you have a Strong base off season And then you want to do more What is your recommendation As to how large of a percentage Your intensity Or peak mileage For the next training cycle Should be in other words

[00:25:26] How much do you increase safely So that you don't get injured Yeah In what we call The pre preparatory phase Or pre prep phase Which is kind of your off season sort of Not really it's even Before pre prep phase But you know usually Pre preparation phase

[00:25:48] Is like six to eight weeks And then there's preparation phase And then there's Racing phase and then recovery phase So All these different phases Periodization training right So It's very different for everybody But What would the percentages be I never even heard this Truthfully in coaching lingo

[00:26:14] If you Theoretically The axiom for Increases in volume During training season Would be about 10% More a week without Big risk of injury I have heard you can increase Per week I don't know about the depends on I guess the answer is depends on how big

[00:26:38] Your season is how long your season is But I have heard you can Increase 20 to even 30% A week But Generally speaking you want to hold it down To 10% a week I do not create Schedules that are even 10% More a week Schedules are less than 10% A week

[00:27:02] Beginners even increasing it less Than that I just did a couch to 5k And it was like 3 to 5% Increase in volume each week Which is like When you're starting at nothing It's like nothing increasing When you're up to 60 miles Increasing 10% is 6 miles More

[00:27:24] So that's a bit more each week Up there So anyway I'm not recommending that For everybody That's not for everybody So yeah depending on the length Of your season Increasing as much as 10% A week I don't even know what that would end up being Because you're doing 10%

[00:27:46] Of 10% of 10% of 10% So I didn't even know what the math Of that would be But it get up there pretty quick You know I find you can get up to From 30 to 60 miles In 4 months 12 weeks of training Something like that That's not undoable The other problem is

[00:28:08] Of course when you're really getting up into 60-80 mile range You really need more taper weeks I find most adult athletes Not pro athletes But most adult athletes Early season you're building 3 weeks and then you're tapering A week 3 week build 1 week taper 3 week build

[00:28:28] 10% more each week or less And then when we taper During those really big Miles 60 to 80 Mile weeks I know you're not at 80 but 60 to 80 mile weeks You really need like Maybe 2 week build 1 week taper 2 week build or even 1 week build 1 week taper 1 week build 1 week taper

[00:28:52] It depends on the individual It's really where A coach comes in And says okay we've seen you Do this, this is where you've failed This is where you benefited And This is what you need And you need to work with the athlete And say yeah that makes sense

[00:29:12] And even that can change during season Well I've had people say You know I'm exhausted I've had 2 weeks of training I'm at 70 miles And take 3 days off Let's talk after tomorrow It becomes a daily thing Changing your schedule You don't really want to map Out the whole thing

[00:29:34] And then stick to it Because you might benefit From coming back faster Just from 2-3 days off I've heard one of the top coaches In triathlons say Who has winners At Kona Ironman Who says every so often In the season she'll give her Triathlete an entire week off

[00:29:58] Do nothing the entire week Come back stronger And they do and they win This is their job If they don't win, they don't make money They don't eat, they don't have a roof over their head This is critical stuff And she'll give them a week off

[00:30:14] If they need it Of course they're going from race to race to race Whatever But mostly Olympic And sprint distance And then an occasional Ironman Which ends with a marathon Which is the only reason I mentioned it So it's really different for everybody But the off season

[00:30:34] You know you can really kind of maintain Sort of a steady flow Toward the end Of the day And you can build a little more A little more mileage But just maintaining and building strength In the off season Allowing your body to rest or recover

[00:30:52] That can be huge Rest you come back stronger I've had people who are over training Too long And they come to me and they say You know I'm slowing down I just can't keep up with my group anymore I don't know why Over training Over achievers

[00:31:12] That they'll take their schedule And when it says five miles They'll do six or eight or ten Midweek you know And they're right doing more to a point Is better But maybe they're doing it too early Maybe it's too much for their system They're not recovering enough

[00:31:30] And I'll say take a day or two off And they'll come back two days later And they're like fast again They're slowing themselves down So there's an equilibrium Everything needs to be Imbalanced If you're doing too much early in the season That might work later in the season

[00:31:48] Because you're way up there But suddenly you're over training And you're killing yourself You're slowing yourself down So everything imbalance Recovery imbalance With building Great stuff And I mean I guess that's Boils down to the same thing We discover every single time

[00:32:10] It's so important to have individualized coaching And figuring out what really works for you Taking into consideration everybody else's lifestyle too But thank you so much David We really appreciate you coming on Absolutely Thank you Thank you David so much

[00:32:28] For coming on and for all your great tips And advice If anyone has any questions Direct them to me or to him I'm going to link all the information I have In our show notes So it's good to have people with different opinions

[00:32:42] And be able to kind of probe The experts that have been doing it for a long time To see what kind of tips and tricks they have Exactly Especially somebody like David who has such a volume Of people I'm sure he gets really good feedback

[00:32:56] And a variety of feedback So he can kind of figure out what works for the masses Obviously as we concluded in our podcast It's always best to have your own Running coach because no experience is the same And there are so many variables when it comes to running

[00:33:08] That's true So now Ryan and I are going to go back to Sipping margaritas by the pool We're still in the keys enjoying life Only I don't drink I must have drank so much I forgot We'll go back to pad-a-boarding And playing in the ocean

[00:33:26] Maybe we'll do some scuba diving And hopefully the weather forecast Of storms and bad weather Will not come true And with that Have a great week of running Thanks for tuning in For more information and marathon running news Please head to www.marathonrunningpodcast.com

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